IPB Style© Fisana

Jump to content


Photo

Tell me about relays?


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Molly

Molly

    Guzzisti

  • 86 posts
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11 Sport

Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:41 PM

I've learned on this forum that the relays in my 2000 V11 are overtaxed (aren't we all...).

The previous owner has numbered the relays in my bike from one to five suggesting 'issues' and passed me a new one amongst the bike's bits and bobs. Could someone tell me what the relays do and should owners keep a few spares on hand when out and about? Oh, and are they interchangeable?

Thanks.

#2 Guest_ratchethack_*

Guest_ratchethack_*

Posted 10 March 2008 - 07:19 PM

The order (front to back) is: START, LIGHTS, NEUTRAL, ECU, and EFI.

Using 5-pin relays in all sockets works fine and is advisable for commonality in switching out, though only the START socket makes use of the 5th pin, the rest only require 4-pin relays. IMHO, it's always a good idea to carry a spare. John Ryland has done some advanced analysis on Omron relays (per many previous posts), and offers higher-rated OMRON replacements at a very reasonable price (thanks again for shipping mine, John!)

See John's recent thread of announcement of availability thru him here:

http://www.v11lemans...mp;#entry137196

As John has pointed out, the “higher than stock amperage” ratings of the GEI relays from Pyro Dan (the Guzzi Relay Man) have been suspect (at least in the START socket), and are NOT by any stretch "foolproof".

FWIW, Pyro Dan's got a Web site with a good FAQ that discusses Guzzi relays: http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm

I thought John Ryland also had a Web site with a write-up on the Omron relays, but I can’t seem to locate it at the moment. Lacking that, here's John's analysis in summary:

In comparing the manufacturer’s specifications, the Omron is rated higher than the GEI in every category except steady load current. These include inrush current, maximum initial contact voltage, high frequency vibration, and operating temperature.

Omron also includes reliability testing specifications, shock, humidity, inductive load reliability, and overload inrush testing at 100 amp and 20 amp steady load to 300,000 cycles. GEI does not provide corresponding specifications.

Conclusion: The GEI is rated at 25 amps for the NO contact and 20 amps for the NC, whereas the Omron is rated at 20 and 10 respectively. In my opinion, there is no basis for the higher contact ratings claimed by GEI. If anything, they should be lower than Omron's ratings when based on the same objective criteria. In further support of this, the inrush current capacity of the NO contact specified by GEI is 25 amps, as compared to 60 specified by Omron. :thumbsup:



#3 dlaing

dlaing

    Retired Spaminator

  • 7,560 posts
  • Location:California
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11Sport
  • Location:
    you can't get there from here

Posted 11 March 2008 - 04:31 AM

Here is brief history as I know it:
Initially the Siemmens relays started failing.
Pyro Dan saved the day for many people by offering Bosch relays.
I bought a set from Dan, but eventually started to have trouble with the starter relay.
I then bought another set from him, and went through several Bosch relays within a few months.
I looked at the wiring diagram and determined that the current of the lighting passing through the starter relay was a bit too close to the steady load current rating of the Bosch and Siemmens.
Dan and I searched for a relay with a better rating and came up with the GEI relay.
10A vs 20A rating seems like a no brainer, an mine have lasted for years and clearly cured a problem that the Bosch relays failed to cure.
Eventually I did the headlight relay mod, with help from Gary Cheek, and that alleviated the issue of the NC contact in the starter relay.
But there were a couple, or maybe a few, reports of the GEIs failing.
I think both occurrences that I read about were failures, not at the starter relay, but at the fuel pump relay.
Docc had one of the failures.
Keep in mind that some people (Nogbad and maybe others) are still going strong with the original Siemmens relays!!!
But as far as I know, those people have a switch to turn the headlight off. North American V11s don't have that switch.
In my humble opinion, the Omrons that Ryland3210 sells are significantly better, especially at the NO contact than the GEI, and the GEI is significantly better than the Bosch, especially at the NC contact, and the Bosch is significantly better than the Siemmens.
But As Always, Your Mileage May Vary.
Other factors can cause the relays to fail, like a bad charging system or bad connections, so if you have a relay failure, it is a good idea to test the charger voltage output and go through the connections and clean with a product like DeOxit, a product that Ratchethack recommends.
If you don't have the Siemmens or problems, you may be fine for many years to come.
For insurance, it might be good to by a set of better relays and keep the old ones as spares.

You can buy the Omrons from John Mickowski, aka Ryland3210, here:
http://www.motratech.com/Welcome.html

You can buy the GEI from Pyro Dan Prunuske, from where Ratchet posted, here:
http://www.dpguzzi.com/relay.htm

#4 dlaing

dlaing

    Retired Spaminator

  • 7,560 posts
  • Location:California
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11Sport
  • Location:
    you can't get there from here

Posted 11 March 2008 - 04:52 AM

Of course you are on the Isle of Man, so you might consider buying local...

#5 Ouiji Veck

Ouiji Veck

    Forum-aholic

  • 669 posts
  • My bike(s):
    02 LeMans 80SP 94 900SS Duc
  • Location:
    Big Island Hi

Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:05 AM

I went with a handful of GEIs from Dan ($15) before I had any problems.
That was about 30K mi ago..still good. Threw about 3 of the Simmens in
my tank bag ...I get a glimpse of them once in a while when I go in for sun glasses
or some Jolly Ranchers... :D

#6 ALdad

ALdad

    Guzzisti

  • 144 posts
  • My bike(s):
    monster 800ie, 2000 V11 sport Greenie
  • Location:
    Laguna Niguel CA.

Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:08 AM

Anybody heard of the Tyco brand made in portugal. GP cycles in SD ripped me off for a couple of these as back ups when I first got the bike and was having the tranni recall done. :angry2: I knew nothing about what they should cost at the time, they charged me $25.00 ea. I will never do business with them again because of this. I dooon't like being taken advantage of. Everybody Is ignorant as a newbe. So far the boshes have been fine 1yr,11kmi.

#7 Guest_ratchethack_*

Guest_ratchethack_*

Posted 11 March 2008 - 04:01 PM

Alan, I wouldn't be so hasty about slagging Paul, Isaac, and the guys at GP Moto as rip-off artists. IMHO they've been a first-class operation for longer than many Guzzi dealers have existed, know V11 Guzzi's better than probably anyone south of Mark & the boys at MG Classics in Signal Hill (Sonny Angel has a great little museum and a formidable mountain o' munt, but he hasn't ever done any V11 business to speak of), and the experience of many here in SD (myself included) has been that Dave does top-drawer mechanical work (he did my trans recall work too on an "over the counter" basis). FWIW, I've used Tyco relays in sockets other than the START socket for over 5 years without a single failure. Pricing is a screwy thing with dealers, especially Guzzi dealers. If GP is marking up their Tyco relays that high, they're probably not interested in selling too many. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, my friend. You may need their services and/or parts some day. ;)

#8 ALdad

ALdad

    Guzzisti

  • 144 posts
  • My bike(s):
    monster 800ie, 2000 V11 sport Greenie
  • Location:
    Laguna Niguel CA.

Posted 11 March 2008 - 09:08 PM

Alan, I wouldn't be so hasty about slagging Paul, Isaac, and the guys at GP Moto as rip-off artists. IMHO they've been a first-class operation for longer than many Guzzi dealers have existed, know V11 Guzzi's better than probably anyone south of Mark & the boys at MG Classics in Signal Hill (Sonny Angel has a great little museum and a formidable mountain o' munt, but he hasn't ever done any V11 business to speak of), and the experience of many here in SD (myself included) has been that Dave does top-drawer mechanical work (he did my trans recall work too on an "over the counter" basis). FWIW, I've used Tyco relays in sockets other than the START socket for over 5 years without a single failure. Pricing is a screwy thing with dealers, especially Guzzi dealers. If GP is marking up their Tyco relays that high, they're probably not interested in selling too many. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, my friend. You may need their services and/or parts some day. ;)

Your absolutly right. After I hit post I knew somebody would say hey wait a minute :homer: Experience Is that moment of hesitation before you go ahead and make the same mistake. I do still feel the price was too wayhigh and There was another issue at the time that I won't go into. However Bashing dealers or anybody else for that matter is not appropriate in a public fourm. They did do a good job on my tranni. :D Are the tyco's better than the bosh?

#9 Molly

Molly

    Guzzisti

  • 86 posts
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11 Sport

Posted 11 March 2008 - 10:35 PM

Just a thank you for the replies.

Much appreciated.

#10 dlaing

dlaing

    Retired Spaminator

  • 7,560 posts
  • Location:California
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11Sport
  • Location:
    you can't get there from here

Posted 12 March 2008 - 06:42 AM

(Sonny Angel has a great little museum and a formidable mountain o' munt, but he hasn't ever done any V11 business to speak of)

Sonny Angel Motorcycles has done plenty of V11s and FWIW had the TechnoResearch software before the V11 came out, so are quite familiar with fuel injection. Perhaps not as many as GP, but GP has a few more mechanics.

and the experience of many here in SD (myself included) has been that Dave does top-drawer mechanical work (he did my trans recall work too on an "over the counter" basis).

Didn't Dave move up North somewhere, greatly reducing their pool of Guzzi knowledge?

#11 Guest_ratchethack_*

Guest_ratchethack_*

Posted 12 March 2008 - 04:43 PM

Sonny Angel Motorcycles has done plenty of V11s and FWIW had the TechnoResearch software before the V11 came out, so are quite familiar with fuel injection. Perhaps not as many as GP, but GP has a few more mechanics.

Didn't Dave move up North somewhere, greatly reducing their pool of Guzzi knowledge?

Dave, next time you're having donuts and coffee with Sonny and the usual Saturday morning crew down in National City, ask Sonny how many new V11's he sold in his best year. I reckon it's less than HALF wot GP did in their best month. Give it y'er best shot and prove me wrong (if you make an attempt, you can be sure I'll check on you ;) ). Not that Sonny gives a damn. His building has been paid off for well over 50 years, and he's never been in much of a hurry to sell anything, as he'll be proud to tell you. Last I was down there he had a "new" LeMans, 5 years old, still priced "firm" at about $2K above market as I recall. :whistle:

As far as Dave at GP Moto moving up North? Since I still do 100% of all non-warrantee work myself, I don't track movements of Guzzi mechanics very closely, and my Guzzi mechanic tracker hasn't reported back from his last field search expedition yet, so Dave could be hunting bunyips in Bungendore, for all I know. :huh2: ;)

#12 dlaing

dlaing

    Retired Spaminator

  • 7,560 posts
  • Location:California
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11Sport
  • Location:
    you can't get there from here

Posted 12 March 2008 - 05:07 PM

Yes, GP sells more bikes. GP has probably sold 25 Ducati for every Guzzi, while half of the bikes Sonny sold in the past years were probably Guzzis, and more than half of the new ones sold were V11 spines and tontis.
If by "business" you mean sales, he has not done much, but he has done some.
But if you mean they don't know V11s you are dead wrong.
Both companies seem to charge MSRP on Guzzi parts, which ain't cheap, and the Tyco probably got priced to match the Guzzi book price.
If you do a search on eBay motors for micro relays you probably won't find one shipped to you under $20.
Obviously micro relays can be found cheaper.
I am not sure people realize that Pyro Dan is practically selling those for wholesale and it is a nearly complete act of benevolence netting him pennies on the hour.
Ryland will be lucky to make $3 per hour selling the relays. Again, not for the money. (And way less if you count in the research time).
There is a Tyco/Omron connection, but Ryland sells made in USA relays, not made in Portugal.

#13 orangeokie

orangeokie

    Forum Flooder :)

  • 837 posts
  • My bike(s):
    Rosso Corsa - sold (regrettably); replaced with Coppa Italia
  • Location:
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA

Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:13 AM

I've learned on this forum that the relays in my 2000 V11 are overtaxed (aren't we all...).

The previous owner has numbered the relays in my bike from one to five suggesting 'issues' and passed me a new one amongst the bike's bits and bobs. Could someone tell me what the relays do and should owners keep a few spares on hand when out and about? Oh, and are they interchangeable?

Thanks.



Welcome Molly. KNOW THE RULES :rolleyes:

#14 Ryland3210

Ryland3210

    Forum Flooder :)

  • 1,027 posts
  • My bike(s):
    2004 V11 Cafe Sport

Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:23 AM

Yes, GP sells more bikes. GP has probably sold 25 Ducati for every Guzzi, while half of the bikes Sonny sold in the past years were probably Guzzis, and more than half of the new ones sold were V11 spines and tontis.
If by "business" you mean sales, he has not done much, but he has done some.
But if you mean they don't know V11s you are dead wrong.
Both companies seem to charge MSRP on Guzzi parts, which ain't cheap, and the Tyco probably got priced to match the Guzzi book price.
If you do a search on eBay motors for micro relays you probably won't find one shipped to you under $20.
Obviously micro relays can be found cheaper.
I am not sure people realize that Pyro Dan is practically selling those for wholesale and it is a nearly complete act of benevolence netting him pennies on the hour.
Ryland will be lucky to make $3 per hour selling the relays. Again, not for the money. (And way less if you count in the research time).
There is a Tyco/Omron connection, but Ryland sells made in USA relays, not made in Portugal.


Thanks for the kind words, Dave. You're right that this kind of thing is a labor of love. Total sales have only been 26 sealed relays at $8, 5 unsealed at $5, and 5 donated to a generous friend. In my days at HP, where I was privy to the gross profits, these parts would have been marked up to $30 and $21 respectively.

I'm not aware of a Tyco/Omron connection. Tyco is a U.S. Corporation, and Omron is Japanese. Omron operates a plant in the U.S., where these relays are made. I believe the Omrons are the best available. The specs they supply and my tests and inspection bear that out.

#15 dlaing

dlaing

    Retired Spaminator

  • 7,560 posts
  • Location:California
  • My bike(s):
    2000 V11Sport
  • Location:
    you can't get there from here

Posted 14 March 2008 - 04:35 PM

I'm not aware of a Tyco/Omron connection. Tyco is a U.S. Corporation, and Omron is Japanese. Omron operates a plant in the U.S., where these relays are made. I believe the Omrons are the best available. The specs they supply and my tests and inspection bear that out.

Yep, I think you are right. I must of been confused by a cross reference.
Apparently Tyco is headquartered off-shore of US, in Bermuda and Omron is based in Kyoto.
I forgot Guzzi switched to unsealed A1001-A402 (4 terminal) and A1001-A403 (5 terminal) , so GP was most likely simply charging MSRP.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users