48 replies to this topic

[belfastguzzi]

I don't know if Ford sells this in Europe or not but here in the U.S. they market a silicone grease for brake calipers & dielectric applications. In your case you would want to give it a liberal amount to where the spark plug wire is sticking to the bore of the tube and in the cavity that goes onto the spark plug end. This wil prevent water intrusion and make the boot easy to remove the next time.

Hi Gene, I have used ACF 50 to combat the corrosion and to lubricate, but in that environment, the rust still seems to thrive. I suppose that the rust had already gotten hold in the early days, prior to lubrication. Perhaps Guzzi should apply some at the factory?

[Baldini]

For the rust - coppaslip would do the job?

The particles in the oil - they are metallic? Like Gary, I wouldn't expect to see crap like that in a healthy engine. Could be some bits still flushing thru from last time's damage? See what 't's like next time - I'd be inclined to make that next time soon - just to see.

Good luck with everything.

KB

[richard100t]

After looking at the metal bits in your pan and screen I think your engine has either cleaned out the damage that was done or is eating itself alive. Looking at the bits in the pan I would say its the latter.

[gstallons]

I don't know if Ford sells this in Europe or not but here in the U.S. they market a silicone grease for brake calipers & dielectric applications. In your case you would want to give it a liberal amount to where the spark plug wire is sticking to the bore of the tube and in the cavity that goes onto the spark plug end. This wil prevent water intrusion and make the boot easy to remove the next time.

Hi Gene, I have used ACF 50 to combat the corrosion and to lubricate, but in that environment, the rust still seems to thrive. I suppose that the rust had already gotten hold in the early days, prior to lubrication. Perhaps Guzzi should apply some at the factory?

NO company applies anything that costs money. It is a matter of learning what should have been done for the next time. I don't know if the spark plug tubes aer removable so they can be replaced or repainted.
What is ACF 50 ?

[belfastguzzi]

I don't know if Ford sells this in Europe or not but here in the U.S. they market a silicone grease for brake calipers & dielectric applications. In your case you would want to give it a liberal amount to where the spark plug wire is sticking to the bore of the tube and in the cavity that goes onto the spark plug end. This wil prevent water intrusion and make the boot easy to remove the next time.

Hi Gene, I have used ACF 50 to combat the corrosion and to lubricate, but in that environment, the rust still seems to thrive. I suppose that the rust had already gotten hold in the early days, prior to lubrication. Perhaps Guzzi should apply some at the factory?

NO company applies anything that costs money. It is a matter of learning what should have been done for the next time. I don't know if the spark plug tubes aer removable so they can be replaced or repainted.
What is ACF 50 ?

It's fancy aerospace stuff >> http://www.motorcycl...r&pageId=147977

I used Coppaslip first of all: last few times of cleaning the tube I've used the ACF.
My reference to Guzzi applying it or any sort of grease at the factory was, of course, a joke (with no possible basis in reality).

The tube can be removed. As per my original post, I have turned it upside down as an interim measure and will replace it/them when I can get a new one(s).

Looking at a photo of the original boot, I see that it had 3 sealing rings/flanges, rather than 2. MG must have reduced the seal to 2 rings in order to make the blighter 'easier' to remove from the tube.

[gstallons]

Use the Ford dielectric greas liberally filing the ribs of the plug boot. This will keep out ALL moisture intrusion and allow you to pull the boots off easy the next time. You can find a variation at any auto parts store or on line.

[pete roper]

Use the Ford dielectric greas liberally filing the ribs of the plug boot. This will keep out ALL moisture intrusion and allow you to pull the boots off easy the next time. You can find a variation at any auto parts store or on line.

The orinal boots are as useless as tits on a bull. Just junk 'em and get a pair of NGK SB05E caps and be done with it. Snip the very end off the HT lead so you can screw the caps on and just fold 'em over under the covers. No more arcing and easy to remove.

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Pete, if you are still around... what do you think of those bits that were in the sump this time (photos a few posts earlier)?
Where could they be coming from in the 8V?

The previous oil change had steel swarf in it, along with a load of other gunk including plastic!

I don't know what this is. I didn't have a magnet, apart from the sump magnet. The bits didn't really seem attracted to that little magnet. They did stick to it, but I think that was just the oil holding them. So I don't think that they are steel, though I'm not totally sure. They were hard and fairly sharp/rough.
Alloy? Don't know.
The other obvious thing could be carbon, but why would carbon lumps like that be in the oil of a low-mileage engine?

What else could it be?

What has the oil been like, out from your 8Vs?


How can I get Piaggio-Guzzi to take an interest??????????????

[pete roper]

The only thing that immediately springs to mind for the plastic bits is the cam chain tensioner blade. Yes, I'm afraid that it is quite possible to snap this on the LH cylinder. I found this out the hard way on a customer's bike, (While he was looking over my shoulder!). To replace the cam you have to force the tensioner back with a flat bladed screwdriver and then secure it back with a key through the small hole in the back of the cam chain tunnel to allow you to de-mount the top sprocket from the cam. The tensioner is VERY frangible and if you don't get it right the tensioner can shatter. Unfortunately to replace it you have to remove the engine from the frame, remove the gearbox and most of the clutch to get to its lower mount. My guess is that the 'Hammer' may of bust the tensioner and what you are seeing is the result of the cam chain slowly eroding the tensioner. Before you freak out though look down the chain run on the 'outside' of the cylinder as it were and see if you can see the top of the tensioner. It should be visible and if it is broken it will be obvious.

I'm currently 'Mentoring' the young mechanic at the Canberra dealer and he's currently got in an '09 Grisowhich has eaten its tappets. The reason for that is obvious though. A really cheap and nasty mineral oil was used by the idiot who did the first service, (An EX-dealer in Canberra. he couldn't even be bothered to use a UFI filter for the bloke so his warranty is toast!). The 8V motor simply won't tollerate cheap oil, the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and the underneaths of the piston crowns will just cook it then the cams eat the tappets. It's all so un-neccessary. All they need is to be treated *RIGHT* and they are bulletproof. Mine's up to 50,000Km now and NOTHING ever goes wrong with it, the valve gaps never change, the FI never meeds looking at. The TB's remain in ballance. It's stupendously, boringly reliable! None of the 8V's I look after is any different. I have several 'Regular' Customers with Grisos, a couple of stelvios and a couple of 1200 Sport 8V's and they are all the same. They just need the most basic servicing. Nothing else!

As for how to get the UK importer or factory to help or even acknowledge your problems??? I have no idea. I'm sorry.

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Hi Pete
the tensioner blade was the only plastic part that I could think of, but I didn't think that it might be broken.

– Well, that makes a worrying kind of sense. It could well be the explanation.

Which bit is it that gets pushed back and can break?

Part 25 or Part 26?


Can I see the parts (on either side/cylinder) just by removing the top cover and looking in?
It'll be dark by the time I get home, so I'll not try it tonight.

[belfastguzzi]

Oh, you say left cylinder.

Why the left?

This is it:

[pete roper]

Why the left? Because on the right hand cylinder you just take the big nut off the inside of the camchain tunnel and you can pop out the tensioner plunger. On the left hand cylinder they obviously didn't want to have a 'Hole' wth a plug in it in the fins on the outside of the barrel so the tensioner plunger is still inserted from the 'Inside' of the V but has to be in the 'outside' of the casting to place pressure on the 'Slack' side of the chain. As with all Guzzi motors the crank spins clockwise when viewed from the front. The idler shaft is gear driven and spins counter clockwise so it is the left hand runs of the cam chains, (Viewed from the front.) that will be under tension when the engine is running so the wear in the chain pins that causes elongation has to be compensated for by a tensioned blade acting on the right hand run of the chain viewed from the front but on the left hand side of the bike as you sit on it.

Where the bolt that holds the bottom of the tensioner sits on the LH cylinder is a collosal frontbottom! They could of put it in from the 'Front' which would of only required removal of the barrel to replace the bolt and tensioner. That though would of required a more complicated machining process and added expense! So it comes in from the back, behind the flywheel, and you need to take the the bloody engine out to get to it!!!! If I have time I'll dig out the pics of Mark's bike while it was apart and post 'em up here but they're already up on Guzzitech if you want to sift through over there to find 'em.

Pete

Oh, and the part that busts is #26, the one with a hole in the bottom. The other one is simply a guide. #26 pivots on the eye at the bottom under pressure from the hydraulic tensioner plunger.

[jrt]

If some of those bits are metal, then just put a neodymium magnet in your sump- maybe install one in the tip of the oil drain plug?

[pete roper]

If some of those bits are metal, then just put a neodymium magnet in your sump- maybe install one in the tip of the oil drain plug?

JAson, while the theory of a magnet in the sump to catch ferous shit is a good one the fact is that the sump is a large space and bits of steel have to be pretty close to the magnet to be attracted to it. There is already a magnet in the drain plug, it's tiny and more there because the part is shared with the gearbox and CARC drain plugs rather than any real benefit I think. The gearbox too is pretty useless but at least it is at one of the lowest places in the box, likewise the CARC plug. In that case there is at least some hope of *solid* bits falling to the lowest point and being caught by the magnet. In the motor's sump you just effectively have a flat 'Tray'. anything that falls into the bottom of the engine will only be caught by the magnet by pure arse if it washes up close to it.

And of course a magnet is useless for anything other than ferous metals. Bits of barrel spigot or platic cam chain tensioner blades won't care a damn.

pete

[pete roper]

OK, so if you break the LH camchain tensioner you have to do this.



Which make you feel like a bit of a prat. Not as much of a prat as you must feel if you bust someone's tensioner and decide that you don't need to replace it and hope they won't notice though!

Once you get it on the bench you can have a look at what's going on. You don't in fact need to remove the barell and head to do this but as I hadn't done one before I thought it would be safer to do so.



As you can see I had to take the clutch apart to access the pin/plugthat the tensioner swings on. You can, luckily, leave the flywheel itself in place. I'm pointing to where it goes with the allen key.



Pin itself lives under plug.



The part you break if you're a f@cking idiot.



And just for your entertainment some other pics of bits and bobs of the 8V.





Hydraulic tensioner plunger with ball valve in the bottom. These are installed with the ball valve end 'down' so they sit in a puddle of oil. The plunger has a light spring that pushes out the piston allowing the ingress of oil past the ball but when the chain tries to push the blade of the tensioner back against the piston the valve closes and seals hydraulically 'locking' the tensioner in position.



One of the camboxes. Note how with the cam positioned as it would be at TDC the tops of the cam followers are just proud of the top of the cambox, (These are the things the little pushrods are sitting in and the parts that wear if the cam/tappets fail.).



On a couple of 8V's I've had the camboxes out of I've found the oil feed dowels on the studs damaged/squashed. Might be worth ordering a couple before you start rippin' in. they're only pennies.



Pete