4corsa
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Posts posted by 4corsa
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I will be very disappointed if the factory does not make a limited edition Dr. John tribute bike or at least a livery as they do for Tenni. We may, as a group, want to relay that to the factory - if there is a formal way of doing so.
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Temp fix done. Battery charging again. It was the stator connection that friedRoadside repairs, so much fun
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Roadside repairs, so much funDay 1 of 3 day 600+ mile tour in the Catskill Mountains
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Day 1 of 3 day 600+ mile tour in the Catskill Mountains
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Please let us know what she says!
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Had no idea when I posted Paul Fuhrman's lovely V11 build it would lead to 8 pages of art philosophy. Almost forgot what started all this discussion
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I use Chat GTP every day solely for translating emails - much better than Google Translate, especially for more technical topics.
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Truly awesome and impressive docc - congratulations on #23!
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Don't recall what year yours is, but my '03 LeMans allows (barely) for access as shown here (earlier models have the nipple located elsewhere). This photo and explanation appears on one of the greasing the drives driveshaft posts from 3 years ago. I used a standard grease gun fitting. The difficulty was getting your fingers back there in any way to exert enough force to click the fitting down on the nipple. In the end, I pushed it down onto the nipple with plyers.
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...Lucas bullet connectors
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I took these photos a couple weeks ago while in Mandello del Lario down the street from the Guzzi factory red gate. I think we can all agree this is art!
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Phil - I think your definition is about as close as you can get to anything ressembling a universal definition. I've been asking people this question all my life, and the truth is there is no perfect answer. That said, there are always exceptions to rules and definitions. Take a look at the attached photo of a decorative pitcher from the Italian Renaissance (probably a repro). It was created for, and used to carry and pour water as it's simple function. It certainly could have been left as unadorned fired clay. But as it is seen and used every day, advanced cultures elevated it with an artistic intervention to be more than a vessel. It is certainly now a piece of art.Once something enters the world of having at it's core reason to exist a physical functionality, purpose or use it's not part of the "art" world in my view. A motorcycle or a car by definition are transportation devices first and foremost as is an aircraft. They can be beautifully designed, formed and crafted but in my mind they are not art. A Spitfire no matter how beautiful the design is, is never referred to as a piece of "art" nor was the Concord or any other aircraft ever produced that I can think of for that matter. I wonder why people are so quick to assign the tag of "art" to a particular motorcycle as I've seen many times but not to something like a Spitfire? Both machines designed to transport people to a location albeit by different means but a beautiful motorcycle somehow enters the realms of "art" for some and the beautiful aircraft does not. A mystery to me at least.
The acid test is ask a non motorcyclist if the MV Agusta F41000 is "art" and they'll look at you like you are insane. BTW my MV along with the 1000SS Ducati lived in my lounge room and dining room for years.
Phil
I feel certain (rare) motorcycles like the MV F4 750 in the hands of people like Tamburini, who live, breath, and dream about every aspect of their design do in fact elevate the Motorcycle to art - perhaps more accurately "performance art".
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I could not agree more LowRyter. As you know from the other forum, I sold my Supersport. I briefly considered selling my 03 Le Mans instead, but soon realized I would regret that far more. I look forward to riding it more than my Thruxton RS or R1200RS. The design has always just seemed right, and very Italian. Still puts the biggest smile on my face when I take it for a long ride.All this talk about more power and faster...it has a place. But no one rides a Guzzi for that. It's the "feel", the inertia of that locomotive flywheel pulling you, the steady feel in corners. I ride my Ducati and it's almost too good. Some times it's just boring. I get on one of the Guzzis, it still gives me a smile. I like all my bikes but I spent so much time on the Duc, I get on the Guzzi and it's a nice change. Lately, the Duc has been sitting. I don't have enough curvy roads for it.
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Not sure if Pete is referring to Chuck or Phil as the airplane builder, but wanted to share this photo of the Cozy Mk III (Burt Rutan design) that my brother built from scratch from a set of blueprints. "Only" 7 years to complete...And that from a man who builds aeroplanes from scratch.
ignore the wisdom at your peril.
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Well-stated Scud.
This brings up the heart of the conversation "blending artistry and engineering". The epitome of this pursuit was during the Renaissance, with Leonardo da Vinci likely being the most notable example. The best artists were also engineers and/or architects and vice-versa. And it was not only from their training, but their patrons expected them to have a keen interest and curiosity in both.
This is no longer the case. In most cultures today, professions are pigeon-holed to focus on one thing and do it well. Most current engineering programs are devoid of any significant classes in the arts. As an architect for past 40 years, I deal with capable engineers on a daily basis. But try to have a conversation with them about any design intents or theories, and you get "just tell me what depth you need the beam and I'll do the calcs and let you know the options". Most of them couldn't tell you the first thing about the accomplishments of Leonardo, Eiffel, or Wright.
The increasingly homely automotive and motorcycle designs of the past two decades are evidence of lack empathy and collaboration between engineering and design departments (I would suggest especially evident in recent design trends from Japan, who had previously produced some outstanding designs).
The single exception I've experienced consistently (having completed a few projects there) is the design and engineering culture of Italy. There, engineers are still expected to be well-informed of all arts and history, and are passionate about it. Engineer/Designers such as Tamburini, Zagato, Michelotti, Taglioni, and Magni all had in-depth and integrated knowledge of every aspect of the cars or bikes they were designing and were usually involved in every step. This is true "blending of artistry and engineering", and the reason why Italy has produced, and will continue to produce, the most revered and emulated designs of our age.
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What is your definition of art Phil?
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"The truth is motorcycles are not art" is not the truth. One of the greatest museums on the face of the earth (The Guggenheim in New York) in 1998 dedicated its entire premises to an exhibition titled The Art of the Motorcycle. https://www.guggenheim.org/exhibition/the-art-of-the-motorcycleThe problem is people don't understand the difference between engineering, designing and fabricating. Many of these crude and impractical creations are all about fabrication (often quite good) with a pinch of usually bad design thrown in and scant regard to the engineering.
Anyone with some basic tools and hand skills can strip components off a motorcycle (usually the stuff that makes it a practical riding proposition and road legal) and call it a "custom" or an "interpretation" of god knows what. The truth is motorcycles are not "art". They can be beautiful and an expression of a designers philosophy but if they don't adequately fulfil the design brief then they are just a piece of crafted machinery of limited utility. When I see a "customised" motorcycle like some of the examples shown that are intended to be road ridden then I'm with Pete. These bikes don't fulfil the design brief of a real world road rideable machine in the 21st or even the 20th century in most cases.
The other issue is a cultural one. An interesting observation I have made watching many many US based car and motorcycle shows is Individuality is valued above just about everything else in the US and that includes practicality in more cases than I can sometimes believe. Most of these types of bikes are aimed at the American market and the US market is also where the dollar is to spend on such things. And if it's aimed at the American market then these days by default it's aimed at us as well.
If you want to study the most brilliant motorcycle designers on the planet then just call into your local motorcycle shop and see what they are selling. With all the limitations and regulations they are lawfully bound to observe in every country in the world and the necessity to make the product real world road rideable you can't help but be impressed. These people make "customizers" look like the backyard hackers the vast majority really are.
Phil
That doesn't mean that all motorcycles are art for sure. But in the hands of someone like Massimo Tamburini, who was trained as an engineer and also had a rare gift for design - the Ducati 996 and MV Agusta F4 most certainly are art. I would argue that they are a higher form of art than a typical sculpture found on a museum floor in that they have to satisfy a far greater list requirements and need to incorporate engineering, aerodynamics, and economics, in addition to theories of art and design.
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...not to mention regarding the mechanical and performance side, 90% of riders today are only capable of extracting MAYBE 75% of what their bikes are capable of, even if "only" 80 hp, and that's fine as long as they're enjoying themselves. So what's the point of spending a hundred hours on internal engine mods to extract another 10 hp, unless you're racing the bike at the track?
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Since everyone is still opting for customs and vintage bikes - the Magni Filo Rosso (nero) gets my vote, and is still currently available by special order:
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Since we're all having fun with this, 'would love to hear from the forum members which current bikes you could buy from the showroom today that you think is a more desirable design than this. I will confess that my other bike is a Thruxton RS Showcase, but I'd take this custom build with the aluminum tank and better proportions any day.
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I just think you should actually read the article before you go off on another one of your long-winded anti custom cafe racer rants. Besides the engine and suspension upgrades, it's certainly better looking than any equally uncomfortable sportbike you can buy off the showroom floor these days, including any of the recent V7 iterations.
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I don't know how you can claim nothing was done to increase performance - did you miss this part?
"It now sports a lightened flywheel, a high-torque camshaft, bigger intake valves, a dual ignition, and a pair of 41 mm Dell’Orto carbs. Paul also redesigned the engine ventilation and oil separation systems, and installed an expanded sump and CNC-machined oil pump"
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I know Mr. Roper will lose sleep over a Tonti frame being used for this project, but to each his own. This build is deserving of the Tonti, and so is the engine:
https://www.bikeexif.com/moto-guzzi-v11-tonti-frame
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Regarding the '95 Sport 1100, I wonder which museum he bought it from. Reading the description, we need to get the seller to join our forum!
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LeMans for sale
in Personal Ads
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Wow, asking $6k for a bike with 37k miles. The one from a month ago was asking $7k (with lower miles) if I remember correctly. Glad to see the values are coming up a bit.