pete roper

Yes, enraging isn't it. I've searched high and low but to no avail. The really annoying thing is that the bearing itself is as common as muck! It's the odd sealing system that makes it unique. What is even more enraging is that the same sealing system isn't even very good!

Do you mean the swingarm bearings in the frame?

Which bearing? There are two or three different sizes in there. Two I think. Bigger ones for the crownwheel spindle and smaller ones for the pinion. I think we use NTN or SKF when we're rebuilding a CARC reactive bridge. The inner and outer support bearings are a large, single row 61917-C3, we always use an FAG product, it must have 19 balls, not 17. And the smaller one we once again use SKF or NTN. Can't remember what we use for the pinion nose bearing.

There is no such thing as a 2V per cylinder Stelvio. All Stelvios use the 4VPC, 8 valves in all, motor. Like so many other places these people sell a fantasy. The 8V motor is limited by its camming and its side draught head construction. I don't know whether it was this lot or some other German mob who in a YouTube vid said that the Guzzi 8V and the Ducati 8V, both being 8V motors, should be able to make the same power! Such staggering lack of understanding of modern engine design left me quite literally gobsmacked! While you could, maybe, get a small increase in power with different cams it would come at the expense of bottom end and midrange. The only way you can get more torque is by improving cylinder fill and with the combustion chamber shape and side draught porting of the Guzzi 8V this is very, very difficult. If I wanted to I could claim that an 8V tuned by me could make 110 hp and a zillion mile/tonnes of torque and put up a dyno chart to prove it. All it would prove is that it is very, very easy to massage dyno figures or use ones extrapolated using some undisclosed formula to *Predict* output at the crank. The fact is that having ridden many 'Race Tuned' or whatever 8V's and being very familiar with the powerplant and what it is and isn't capable of I can tell you that most of them are disappointing and usually under perform because the 'Tuners' in question sling a whole load more fuel into the map because they all sing to the tired old song sheet that 'Modern bikes are mapped up lean to get them through emissions' when in fact the opposite is true. The base maps are almost universally rich. Meeting immisions targets is done by using a crude narrow band oxygen sensor to get the ecu to pull fuel out of the map when it's running in closed loop. At all other times, or if the lambda input is turned off, the maps are rich. The last thing you want to do at most places in it is ADD fuel! That's why a lot of these offerings also drink fuel at an extraordinary rate. A properly tuned and mapped 8V makes *About* 100 RWHP. I can imagine 103 in the case above being about on the money. The torque figure? Not so much, unless it is forcibly aspirated and crammed to suit.

So *about* 100RWHP, just like any correctly mapped and tuned 8V makes.

There were numerous issues with the stewardship of the domain name and content after Steve Dayley's untimely death. This was recently, finally, resolved and the stewardship has been transferred to Steve's mate Pete. Hopefully this means that the problems with spammers and registrations etc. will be a thing of the past.

The triangle flashing is because your gear change indicator is set too low, you can raise it using the 'Settings' menu. The blown bulb symbol may well be one of the connectors, most likely a rear one in the tail, only making intermittent contact.

Shit. I always forget normal links don't work on this board. Thanks Docc.

Just because I'm a terrible attention whore but it does look very nice, especially in the sun! https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52767196911_28f284759f_b.jpg

Either will do the job. Is there an *Ideal* solution? Don't ask me! I know the thicker aftermarket gaskets fix the problem. I'm pretty sure Rolf's suggestion has equal merit! All I suggest is that for CARC bikes you get rid of the earlier, truly shit, original gasket.

I see no reason not to use the metal core gaskets.

It mainly affects the 8V's and the problem seems to be that the gallery in both block and spacer is larger and the bottom of the gallery in the block has a largish chamfer on it. This means that the actual thickness of the clamping surface for the gasket is very thin. Couple this with the clamping force being applied still by only two 6mm bolts and the shitty quality of the original gasket and it's a recipe for disaster. PS. It has been known to happen n 2V CARC bike engines too, but it's much rarer. I wonder if it became an issue when they went to the trochoidal pump from the gear pump but I'll likely never know.

Yeah. It doesn't happen to all of them but it's common enough that Michael and I recommend it to all of our customers who are having their bikes rollerised and inform other people and let them make the choice but we do encourage it. I've had it happen on two of my engines. Both required new big end shells as a result. Many people go essentially the life of the motor with no problems but failures are frequent enough to be a concern. Unfortunately the first symptoms are usually big end knock at idle. If it is allowed to progress from there it can get to the point where the cam chain tensioner plungers aren't getting enough oil to prime and they rattle! By then delivery to the top end must be well marginal and I'd expect there to be further damage to the tappets and cam bearings.

If this happened under extreme braking it is unlikely to be pressure loss due to pick up exposure. The pick up on the 'Broad Sump' motors is at the front on the right of the sump. Under heavy braking the oil will slosh forward and there is little chance of it being exposed. It's on hard acceleration, and especially if you wheelie it, that the pick up is likely to be uncovered. In this case, if I'm interpreting the OP correctly, the light remained on for ten minutes after the event during which time the motor was running and the bike was being ridden. If there had been a catastrophic loss of pressure the crank would be toast. Plain bearings simply can't survive without a constant supply of oil at the correct pressure. We are talking seconds, not minutes for irreparable damage to occur. That leads me to think it is far more likely that the cause for the light coming on is far more likely to be something as simple as a dodgy switch, (A well known and documented issue.) or even simply the connector on the wire that goes to it being loose and just the inertia of the cable hurtling forward as the brakes were applied may of caused it to slip and break the circuit. I'd still suggest the installation of a sloppage sheet as it really is very cheap protection for your crank but in this case I don't think it would of helped.

While I'll accept the flat tappet fiasco was a disaster in many ways I don't know what he's gibbering about about electrics or lubrication? As for dealerships? Well, yes. And roadside assistance? If you get sucked in by that shit you deserve everything you get! No idea

Nothing wrong with the . He fitted them to his Norge but only ran them once and decided he preferred the chain and sprockets. Each to their own. Anyway he phoned me asking if I knew anybody who might be interested and since there is a lot of chatter about them here I said I'd mention it. They cost him either $1,100 or 1,300 landed, I can't remember which honestly, but he suggested $800AU plus postage. If anyone's interested PM me and I'll put you in touch.

Yup, they’re rollers.

We've got some of the best riding weeks of the year around now in the south east and west. This summer has been virtually nonexistent around here but we're finally getting some almost perfect weather. Since Michael is on holiday I can skive off as well so I might take a ride down the coast and get some pics in the next day or two. Still won't know how to post them up but Docc or someone usually takes care of that for me.....

Budget to have to replace swingarm and shock linkage bearings as well as a new shock. All the CARC bikes use the same shock linkages and swingarm, the only differences are shock length and upper mount location which governs suspension travel. With a Norge you can go to a Stelvio length shock easily enough and it will quicken up the steering a tad as well as offering more travel but of course it means a small increase in seat height.

I'd hazard a guess it's the spacer for the rim retention screw. It goes over the screw inside the rim so when the screw is tightened down it doesn't deform the rim.

The factory supplied new mapping for bikes that were rollerised, generally they were crap, in fact I think the map for rollerised Sport 1200's was in fact a repurposed Stelvio map. There are many excellent aftermarket maps available, most notably from John who posts as Xltra I believe on various boards and Mark 'Beetle' Bayley. John's maps are Stelvio specific, Mark's are individually built for different models and different exhausts by a long process of on-road data-logging and testing. I have worked closely with Mark for years, he only lives about 300km from me and he travels to Canberra a lot for work so we catch up frequently. I run his maps in all three of my Grisos and have installed them to almost universal acclaim in dozens, if not hundreds, more bikes. The process is very simple and intuitive using the Guzzidiag suite of tools and despite what those with a vested interest in making people think that map modification and FI tuning are some sort of 'White Man Ju-Ju' beyond the Ken of mere mortals the hardware is cheap, the software is downloadable for free, although decent people will make a donation to the designer, and most importantly it's SAFE! It is impossible to brick your ECU using Guzzidiag! Which is more than can be said for PADS, the factory tool, which if a map upload is interrupted can very easily brick the ECU!

Corporate 'Moronthink' at its very finest!

Thanks Docc, it is also up on ADV rider, I think in the Stelvio thread? Can't remember? But it is useful for those who are after an 8V. Once their foibles are worked out they are a magnificent motorcycle and the Hi-Cam 1200-8V is very reminiscent of the old Rotax motor used for years in Aprilias in the way it delivers seamless torque from idle to wherever you set the rev limiter, although they run out of breath above 8,250. Mark ran his limiter at 9,000 in 1200 guise and bounced off it the whole time but when we built the 1400 motor he's currently running it was dropped back to 8,250 in respect of the 30 gram heavier pistons. It's a torque monster but we haven't lost a rod yet! His Griso is currently running a single 60mm throttlebody with a Cali 1400 plenum but still utilises the W5AM controller. That thing will tear your arms clear out of their sockets and stuff them up your arse with mustard on them! It's a beast!

Sorry, Docc or someone will have to sort the pics. Whenever I try to post pics here I'm just told they're too big. All the girls used to tell me that too, (Ha! In my dreams!).

The 'Definitive Guide to Rollerisation' This is something I've been meaning to do for a while as, despite the very youngest flat tappet bikes being nine years old now there are still a large number of them out there and in this post I'll try and cover both the procedure and pitfalls liable to be met during the rollerising process. Firstly let's cover which bikes need rollerising. Most importantly it is ONLY the four valve per cylinder, (8 valves all told so I'll refer to them henceforth as 8V's.) engines that were subject to the Flat Tappet Fiasco. None of the CARC bikes that use the venerable two valve per cylinder pushrod operated OHV engine suffer from chronic cam and lifter problems. Next, don't be fooled by the fact that some 8V models were referred to by the factory as '4V'. This nomenclature has been the source of some confusion but the easy way to identify an 8V motor is to simply look at their rocker covers. 8V motors have the 'Quattro Valvole' logo cast onto them and the back of the cover has a black plastic shroud over it. Like so. Both the 1200 Sport and the 'Small tank' Stelvio, (2008-2011.) were designated as 4V but use the 8V motor. Grisos and Norges were all designated 8V from the outset. No, I have no idea why either. Moving along from that we should look at which flat tappet 8V's need rollerising? The answer is simple. All of them. I know that some people are still in denial. Their engines don't make any unusual noises therefore everything is OK? Sadly, no. If people want to believe through magical thinking, or good luck, or using some special oil that "It isn't going to happen to them"? Well, good luck with that but the only person you'll be kidding is yourself. There is some anecdotal evidence that the last iteration, (There were at least three.) of the flat tappets will last longer than some of the earlier ones. I personally have seen no evidence of this. The problem is also very varied in when it manifests itself. Engines have been known to fail in a couple of thousand miles. Some soldier on for tens of thousands! Invariably though they will, all, eventually fail. With one notable exception all 8V's changed over to roller tappets and cams by the middle of 2012. The factory's engine numbers for the changeover point are listed as; Stelvio- Motor#AC12596 Build Date 12 March 2012 GRiSO - Motor#A813524 Build Date 12 April 2012 Norge - Motor#AA12214 Build Date 18 April 2012 The exception to this is 1200 Sports, none of which were ever made with roller engines at the factory. It's my belief that this is because the last of them were built before the advent of the roller top end and although they continued to be sold and plated as 'Current model' up until at least 2015 in the Australian market they were in fact 'New Old Stock' manufactured prior to rollers. We'll now move on to which 'Kit' will be required for any given bike. Due to changes made to some parts of the top end over the period of production of flat tappet bikes not all of them require the same parts to convert them from flat to roller tappets. For this reason Piaggio produced four different kits to perform the operation on the various engines. Which one you will need and the cost involved can vary enormously and not getting the right one means you can end up with a costly 'White Elephant' on your hands that may be hard to on-sell or can only be done so at a substantial loss. So let's look at this firstly with a timeline. The earliest 8V motors were made using chilled cast iron flat tappets, these were in 2007 through to early 2009. It quickly became apparent that there was a problem as the tappets started to fail. At this point, from memory around the end of 2008 or the beginning of 2009 the factory DID issue an actual recall but not to fit roller tappets as these hadn't been manufactured yet. The first attempted fix was to replace the chilled cast iron tappets with forged steel ones with a 'Diamond like carbon', (DLC.) coating on them. This was supposed to be 'The Fix' and as with all recalls was supposed to be publicised by both factory and dealers and, to their credit, most owners were so notified and in my experience it has been very rare to find a cast iron tappeted bike in circulation after the recall. The problem was it didn't fix the issue. 8V's, the 'Great White Hope' of the Guzzi range was self destructing at an alarming rate! Some geographical locations it seemed to be worse than others, (I for instance long remained skeptical about the problem because I just wasn't seeing it in bikes I'd serviced from new. My problem was I wasn't looking in the right place!). Then in 2012, after the launch of the porcine California 1400 which had the honour of being the first roller tappetted production engine the new roller top end was adopted across the 1200 range with the aforementioned exception of the Sport. This left though all the bikes manufactured before this time with wonky, failing top ends. 2007 to 2012 was a five year window when it should of been fixed but wasn't. Not only that but issuing a full blown recall would of been poisonously expensive. So they didn't. They fudged it. Instead of a recall there was what was described as a 'Technical Update' released on the Service Motoguzzi web portal laying out how the factory would handle it. Firstly it was stated that failures were a rare and unlikely event. They aren't. The attrition rate is 100%. There would be no pre-emptive replacements, the tappets had to fail before a claim would be accepted and the claim for a roller conversion kit was dependent on the owner having a full service history completed not just on distance but also on time, (So if you only did 5,000km a year you were still expected to get a full 10,000km service performed annually and recorded in your log book.). No service history? No kit! The inspection for damage had to be performed by an authorised dealer or service agent and provision of the kit was entirely discretionary. The owner was responsible for the labour component of both the inspection and, if the claim was successful, the installation of the kit. In certain markets with stronger protection laws there was a bit more wriggle room but for most people trying to negotiate a kit was and remains a nightmare. One not helped by the fact that even to this day many dealerships remain seemingly woefully ignorant of the whole sorry affair! So let's look at the four kits and what needs to be done to install them. Needless to say there is no sense at all in their identification as A, B, C and D kits don't follow any sensible timeline! First cab off the rank is bikes built from 2007 through to early 2010. These will all need to be fitted with the C kit. The C kit includes new camboxes, shims for under the inlet valve spring seats, valve guide oil seals for those valves, inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets, tampons, plug tube o-rings and rocker cover gaskets along with the hemispherical 'Pads' that go on top of the tappet towers in the rockers and all three thicknesses of head gasket. For reasons I won't go into here the larger inlet valves require shims under the spring seats. This means the heads have to be removed to fit them. Since you won't know what thickness head gasket you will require until the head is off the kit contains all three gaskets and this adds substantially to the price. There are ways to get out of this cheaper than purchasing th C kit but I'll cover that later. While removing the heads isn't that bothersome per se it can, on some models, most notably the Norge and Stelvio add substantial time to the whole rollerisation operation. Next up in the timeline are bikes built from early 2010 through to late 2011. These bikes require the B kit which doesn't contain manifold gaskets or head gaskets because during this period there were changes to either valve springs or the way the valve spring seats were machined rendering the shims under the spring seats redundant so on these bikes the heads do not have to be removed for rollerisation. From this point on on all models except the 1200 Sports the lack of need for the head to be removed is identified by a drill mark in the paint on the head on the side facing the valley of the engine adjacent to the manufacturing date stamp. From late 2011 through to the changeover to roller tappets at build in mid 2012 there were a number of revisions to the top end that I will cover in the next section. These bikes require the A kit which is similar to the B kit as it doesn't require the heads to come off so no head gaskets, or manifold gaskets are included. Finally, there are the final run 1200 Sports. These use the stand alone and stupidly expensive D kit. This contains all the gaskets as the heads have to come off to shim the inlet valve seats but, unlike the earlier Sports which were confusingly labeled 4V they use the later type heads and camboxes I'll cover in the next section. OK, having listed the kits we'd better work out what the differences are to the top ends of the motors and I'll explain why it is so important to get the correct type of kit for your engine. There are some traps for new players so it is important not to get it wrong as expensive damage can result if you get it wrong. There are basically two versions of the single spark 1200 Hi-Cam top end. The early versions that use the C and B kits and the later versions that use the A and D kits. Let's look at the differences. Most notable is the way the plug tunnel is sealed. On the right you can see the early system. These motors have a long plug tube that passes through the rocker carrier/cambox casting that is sealed at either end with an o ring. One in the head casting and one in the rocker cover. This system uses what is known as a 'Non floating' rocker cover. The later system can be seen on the left. On these machines the *Tube* is much shorter. It is still sealed at either end by an o ring but now it seals in the actual rocker carrier/cambox casting and the top of the tunnel is sealed by a neoprene gasket of the same cross section as the rocker cover gasket itself. This means that the rocker cover is not solidly indexed to the head or rocker carrier and 'Floats' relying on the comparatively light compression of the four cover bolts and their tampons to keep it in position. Note also that there are two different types of tampon and it is important to use the right ones if leakage is to be avoided. So let's first look at the rocker cover of the early type. Here you can see the plug tube and how it inserts in the cover. Note that when the rocker cover is lifted the tube may remain in the head or it may lift with the cover. Damper climates will tend to encourage the tube to rust into the cover and it will lift. Drier climates the tube will tend to remain in the head. Since it is a lot more bothersome to replace the o ring in the head it's a good idea to use some rubber grease on the top, rocker cover, o ring to encourage the rocker cover to come off the tube easier next time and leave the tube in the head. When removed from the rocker cover the pipe reveals the o ring and the groove in which it sits. Note there is no o ring in the groove on this cover. The later versions with the short tube have a similar groove machined into the bottom of the tunnel in the cambox casting. And the top of the plug tube is sealed between the carrier casting and rocker cover by the neoprene gasket. Which in turn fits into a groove in the inside of the rocker cover. Moving on to the two camboxes/rocker carriers there are notable differences here as well. By comparing the two side by side it is possible to see several reasons why they are not interchangeable. In the picture below you can see the later type at the top and the old type at the bottom. See also from looking at the pic above the hole in the casting of the old type is larger to accommodate the passage of the tube. The long tube simply won't fit through the 'New' casting. By looking at them from the side you can see the substantial difference in height of the plug tunnels. The shorter one being the old type as the plug tube pokes up through it to seal with the o ring in the rocker cover. The later one uses the casting itself to act as one of the mating surfaces for the circular gasket used with the 'Floating' cover. Note again new on the left, old on the right. And now we come to one of the, if not the most important difference between the two different assemblies and the reason one must make absolutely sure you choose the right one. During the time when the factory was thrashing around feebly trying to find a solution to the problem of the flat tappets self destructing one thing they tried is deepening the weirs in which the cam lobes actually spin. One assumes that this was in the hope that keeping more lubricant on and around the lobes and tappets would save them. Sadly this was another bit of magical thinking that didn't work but these deeper weirs were added at the same time as the swap to the late type plug tube and rocker cover sealing system in 2011. To accomodate the slight extra depth of the weir castings in the camboxes the actual cylinder head on these later motors is machined under the weir to provide extra clearance. Earlier model, 'Long' plug tube heads do not have this machining. Since all of the roller conversion kits are manufactured using parts cast for the California 1400, (Hence the extra, redundant, plug tunnel.) which also have this machining to the head the weirs are all of the 'Deep' type. Now woe betide you if you try and fit one of these later type camboxes from an 'A' kit to an early bike! While the difference in depth isn't great if you try it you will be rewarded by a 'Clink' noise as you torque the main head/cambox retaining studs down. That'll be the sound of the weir cracking and costing you a considerable sum of money! You can probably guess how I found that out? :oops: Anyway, the way that this issue is addressed with camboxes for the early motors is very simple. Rather than machining the head to give more clearance it is simply the bottom of the weir that has a chamfer machined onto it to give the required clearance. See below the weir on an A/D kit cambox with no chamfer. And a B or C kit cambox. Side by side you can see the difference more clearly. So make SURE you know what you need to order before ordering. I've had several enquiries in the last year from people who have been sold or bought the wrong kit and as I say, this can be a very costly mistake. It is also quite possible for people who need a C or D kit to make substantial savings by buying a B or A kit and adding the other bits required. I've already listed them elsewhere so I'm not going to do it again here. Also, if anyone isn't sure of what they need or would simply like the required parts organised I can happily do it for them. I order direct from Europe and the parts are despatched from there direct to the customer. It'll not cost the customers a cent more than if they buy them direct but I get a substantial trade discount as I put tens of thousands of € through my account every year. I can also guarantee that the correct parts are supplied and can advise on other sensible preventative maintenance at the same time. I hope that has been useful. If people would like further details of what else changed in the top end on the change from 'Old' to 'New' I can continue that later.