Cliff Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Sorry to hear about you bike being a garage queen. I don't recall hearing too much about it. Give us a full run down on what its doing and see if we can get it running better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 26, 2003 Author Share Posted June 26, 2003 Ok, having done a search, it appears we're talking about the 3-4K miss. A common problem unfortunately. Are there any other issues ? The miss could be because of one of two reasons I can think of off hand. If its due to mapping ( being to lean at that point ), then a PC will improve the situation as should increasing the TPS a little to make it richer. If its due to the cam pickup resonating as detailed on http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/fimfaq.html#q8 then its unlikely a PCIII will help. It may be fixed by replacing the ECU. How about finding a V11 near you and trying a quick swap to see if it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martenni Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hey Cliff Scott has the Ti system on his bike so it should have a new ecu with the correct map.Might be worth checking fundamentals like synchronising throttle bodies and tappets maybe. Regards Martin ...................... Tenni 165 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Sounds good Cliff, but can we get Scott to recap the condition, mileage, modifications, etc... of his bike so we have a starting point? Also, if he can provide a bit more detailed description of the problem, that would be helpful as well. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Scott, I with everyone else- hope your bike gets fixed. Is it running at all? But also remember- it's just a machine, and it can be fixed. I'm not trying to be facetious or an asshole here- just trying to keep it in perspective. I always approach a problem like this as if it were a puzzle. With measured care and the scientific method, one should be able to test and probe and assess a problem area to fix it. It takes a hell of a lot of patience and some background knowledge. A punching bag helps sometimes (ask me how I know). Are you close enough to Moto Int. to have them look at it? Have they already looked at it? Dave Richardson is supposed to be the man for Guzzi in that area. Also, generally speaking, Guzzis take a hell of long time to break in. They're like babies- they spit and cough and puke before they learn to sing. I hate breaking in a Guzzi cause it takes so long, but once it's done properly, they run like a dream. Seriously- 8-10,000 miles before it loosens up. I've got 9000 on my V11sport, and it's just starting to come in on it's own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scottd132 Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Ok here goes with out the emotion. The bike ran pretty good until the 600 mile tune up. I had the work done at Moto International. Dave is a nice guy but is totaly hands off of his service department. Mecha is the head service guy, really nice and very smart. His recommendation was to talk to MGNA about the lemon law. After the 600 mile it would not idel at all, cold or hot. I took it in and Mecha said it had a mind of it's own, and the fuel mapping was all over the place, he replaced the ECU, no change, he put the old one back in and fiddled until he found the head temp sensor always reading 34' F. He replaced that and the bike ran a bit better but would not idle when warm, it caughed and spit. The bike ran fine at speed and pulled fine. I ordered the Moto Guzzi Ti exhaust and matching ECU. Moto International installed it. Mecha set the bike up per the instructions which had the CO rich. The bike pulled like a king, but the fuel consumption was in the 20's and it missed badly between 3-4K when under little load like in 6th on the freeway, and it would idle but when hot it would fumble and sometimes shut off after coming down a freeway ramp. Mecha looked at and adjusted the CO down, of course the acceleration was down, the, idle was the same and the miss was the same. How does it miss. It does not surge, it misses like a burnt valve or ignition miss. I have to run it in 4th on the freeway or 85+MPH to avoid the miss. The plugs look good after a run and shut down, nice light to medium brown. Mecha suggested I put in the old stock ECU for everyday driving and swap in the Ti ECU for when I want to have fun. After both Mecha and Jason worked on it they gave up. I called MGNA and Talked with Terry after talking with customer service several times and Terry has not gotton back after emails and phone calls. It has been 4-6 weeks I lost count. Scott in Seattle 2001 V11 sport green/with Rosa carbon parts and Guzzi Ti exhaust and ECU mod. 1400 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 ...small world, as I just got off the phone with Mecha the other day when I was thinking about ordering one of the "old style" head-temp sensors, and describing my problem. He said he knew exactly what I was describing... actually "finishing my story" for me as I described the typical scenario He mentioned a couple customers like yourself(not by name) and said that he indeed has directed you to your local "lemon law" after basically giving up. His only thoughts were that the odd-ball ignition pickup on the V11 was the culprit after talking to MG techs. But the kicker was that in almost every case, while they clandestinely admit that it's an engineering problem, the "problem"(missing, coughing) seems to mysteriously disappear at around that magic 6-10k miles. And they don't know why, nor seem to want to publicly address it, as they can't positively nail down what it is. His only recommendation for me was to possibly get the pickup replaced under warrantee, which sometimes makes the problem a bit better for a while(but always comes back). "Put the miles on it" and see. Or if it's unacceptable, pursue my local "lemon law". For now, I think I'll just try #2, put some miles on it(thus eliminating that "variable") and adjust the valves. But what is interesting, is that my problem(and others confirmed by Mecha) arose only AFTER my first service as well. I've pointed this out several times, but no one seems to find an correlation with whatever happens during the first service, and the exhibition of this problem. My first guess is that the valves get tightened up to spec, which is actually too tight... before the engine loosens up enough for that spec?? I mean, that's the only 'mechanical' change made during the first service. But that's only a guess on my part. I think my "test" of going to RaceCo valve settings in a couple weeks will be telling. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 the "problem"(missing, coughing) seems to mysteriously disappear at around that magic 6-10k miles. Oh really? 20,400+ miles and it's still there as big as ever. Correct TPS setting seems to be the best remedy - but not the cure. I'm going to baldly state that it's the program in the ECU. I cannot yet substantiate that statement. If the missing and coughing on a V11 Sport are bad, then on a Sport 1100i the problem is absolutely evil. When my Sporti is running again, it goes to the Cliff Jeffries computer for comparison, but even with the valves screwed up, Cliff's computer did not seem to exhibit the rpm hiccup. I have hopes to verify that the problem is the ECU programming. I'm still a couple of months away from having heads back though. I have one other option for the V11 Sport. I have in my hot, grubby little fingers, a Weber Marelli IAW1.5M for a California (version C1, the V11 Sport uses the C5 variant, Stones the C3 etc.). Still in the original bag. It does work on a V11 Sport (fired right up when I tried it), but the mapping is bound to be different and that may be the magic bullet. After I return from the National, I'll put a few commute days on it to see what it does. Having a spare ECU is rarity, getting one off of eBay for $22.50 is absurd, but it happened. I have a spare tach too. Despite what an ECU costs ($748 list in the USA), for what I paid for the eBay one, I could send the eBay ECU to Cliff and have him redesign his board to fit the WM case and give that a try as well. Think of it! A whole cottage industry could spring up around gutting Weber Marelli boxes and putting in competent electronics. One thing at a time though, for now, the spare ECU remains exactly that. The Breva shows absolutely NONE of these problems. When the 1200 version arrives next year, it will be damned interesting to see if the factory finally makes the correct design choices for the big block engines or whether they'll continue the tradition of marking off serious flaws as "character". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Oh really? 20,400+ miles and it's still there as big as ever. Now wait, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. I am *not* talking about the 3-4k RPM *cough* that Scott and you were referring to being endemic to this EFI system The *cough* and stumble to which I am referring is only at idle, after my bike gets hot. It "coughs"(misses) out of one of the TBs(usually the left currently, but it's variable) about every minute and a half while at idle if the engine and outside temp is quite high. If the outside temp is below about 80 degrees, all is fine. This only showed up after the first service, and corresponded to the "low-idle/die at a redlight after coming off the freeway" symptom. They seem related. I don't have the common V11/1100 miss(noticeable or regular anyway) at the 3-4k RPM point you describe after I had my ECU replaced with a new one, and have had the PCIII installed. I had it when the bike was really running like a pig before the shop did all the work to try to make it better, but the 3-4k RPM miss now seems to be minimal if not gone(knocking on wood). ...just clarifying. And BTW, you and I both were bidding on that ECU on eBay Congrats on getting it, I forgot to check-in before it ended otherwise you may have gotten more of a "run for your money" I'll be very interested over time to hear about how well Cliff's ECU works on the V11 Sport, and any mods to the stock ECU with his electronics. Using his "guts" or ECU itself is getting more and more attractive as it's becoming harder for me to find a way to modify my timing. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gthyni Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Luckily I haven't experienced more then minor glitches which I hope to correct on 1st service, but the bike is not really broken in yet, just under 200 kms on the meter. If I had problems like this that seemed unsolvable the last options would always be to rip the FI out and bolt on couple of Mikunis , but that's the last option and may not be legal in some countries due to emission regulations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted June 26, 2003 Author Share Posted June 26, 2003 I was considering using carbs when my WM ECU got zapped, but now wouldn't consider anything else but FI. A few people are doing FI upgrades to their bikes at the moment and will using my controller. It really comes down to understanding the technology and more importantly being able to diagnose and control it. This is lacking with the original controllers. Scott it sounds like the leman law is your best option here as you seem to be in good hands dealerwise and this is what they're saying also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Sorry Al, I misinterpreted what you were saying. My theory on the idle blurble (and pure conjecture it is too!) is that the very low air speed velocity through the throttle bodies at idle allows fuel to fall out of mixture and puddle in the intake. Eventually, it does something and the engine coughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeremy Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Al, I would try setting the valves looser, when I set my centauro to u.s. spec it idles poorly when really warm but when set to world spec it is just fine, I think the valve train grows just enough to get you into trouble, they set them tight to pass noise regulations. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Scott it sounds like the leman law is your best option Do you think it was a bad idea to name the bike lemans, kind of to close to lemons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Scott it sounds like the leman law is your best option Do you think it was a bad idea to name the bike lemans, kind of to close to lemons ..I actually tried to get a custom plate here in CA to say "Lemon" when I bought my LeMans.... sort of as a ward against gremlins, and I thought it would be funny But it was already taken <_> al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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