Greg Field Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Back to Foxy. Did it make any abnormal valve clatter before dying? Reason I ask is I've seen 4 cams go on '04 Sports, leaving bunches of swarf in the sump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Back to Foxy. Did it make any abnormal valve clatter before dying? Reason I ask is I've seen 4 cams go on '04 Sports, leaving bunches of swarf in the sump. Cam and tappet failure would explain the ferrous bits. I'd be surprised if it went *suddenly* like that though? I suppose a lobe could of actually worn through the base of a tappet and then the pushrod dropped down. Never seen that but I have seen hydro tappets worn until the foot was gone and the actual lifter was rubbing on the cam lobe! The bloke who owned that one RODE it into the workshop!!!! Good thought though. I'd be intrigued to know what has actually happened with this engine. Pete 'Potty-Mouth' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 Well the good news is I'm back to two functioning bikes, having just about finished a rebuild this evening. Bit of head scratching to be done with getting the timing spot on and then start on the running in. Just got to service my BMW and then, finally, I'll be able to start on the Le Mans. I'm keeping an open mind on what I'll find, but think that any problems should be apparent on removing the head, barrels and inner sump. My only concern is over parts. I've got enough contacts to sort out specialist engineering help, but the saga over something as simple as a replacement speedo makes me wary of how easy it will be to deal with any official outlets. Are there any dealers or other specialists anyone can recommend for parts? Obviously I would prefer UK, but given the strength of the pound I wouldn't have too many qualms about mail order from state side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzirider Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Teo Lamers in the Netherlands hold a decent stock, speak better English than me and dispatch stuff quickly. If you have the part number you can check whether it is in stock online. Teo Lamers Agostinis in Italy are also reliable, yards from the factory- there are several English speakers including Peter the Aussie guy who works there. Agostinis HMB Guzzi in germany bought a lot of V11 parts from the factory. Never had any personal dealings with them but they seem to stock a lot of new V11 bits HMB Motomecca in Dorset are also worth a try Motomecca Corsa Italiana are the official spares importer Corsas I find its best to shop around- prices and availability differ so making a few phone calls normally pays dividends. Good luck with getting sorted. Regards Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouiji Veck Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 This is better than TV Drama, intrigue, danger, mystery Who wants pop corn?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe camarda Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 "Captain America" versus "The Man Down Under" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzirider Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 This is getting silly now. I don't know either of you guys personally, but I do know that Pete gives his time FOC to meet up with GB club members and give demonstrations of engine strip downs and gearbox rebuilds whenever he visits the UK, so I think the personal attack is unwarranted. I'm not sure what the bug is, but there are a lot more important things in life to worry about. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Accurate, eh? You told him: "The best thing to do is remove the engine from the frame, set it on the bench, then set about to dismantling it." He doesn't need to remove the engine from the frame to replace the rod bearings or anything in the top end. That's one of the nice things about Guzzis. He can pull the top end down to the rods from above, then drop the pan, which he's already done, remove the rod caps to replace the shell bearings/remove the rods. Yes dear. Now go take your meds and have a little rest. The best thing he can do is pull the motor and get it on the bench. Yes, he can leave the block in the frame and remove everything BUT the crank but he's already said that the sump was full of munt and quite simply it would be foolish to do anything but strip the motor at this point as we have no idea what the problem actually is, much, much easier to do on the bench. and he can ensure, even if the crank looks good, that the sludge trap is empty and when it goes back together its clean and zero-timed. Why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar? As for the 'Personal attack' thing? Well I think it's fairly obvious that you've got that down pat See you at the National in So-Cal later this year. You can punch me then if you like. I won't put up any resistance but I'd expect you'll probably end up on an assault charge Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe camarda Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 See you at the National in So-Cal later this year. You can punch me then if you like. I won't put up any resistance but I'd expect you'll probably end up on an assault charge Pete http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12651 One more question: "Do y'all smoke crack at these rallies?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Now, as for Foxy's bike, I still say it's easier to pull the top end down with the engine in the frame. He can flush it out, strip it down easily enough like that, basically remove all but the crank, and it sounds like he's pressed for time, and pulling the engine would be an unnecessary waste of that. Top end damage makes a lot of noise, so if it isn't that, his bike may have come with one of the improperly hardened cams from the hydraulic lifter models. The iron in the shavings could be from cam/lifter degradation. That sounds likely, based on Greg's observations. I think Foxy is a little too motor savvy to follow this bad advice. If there are metal bits that have circulated through out the engine and he doesn't strip it completely (including removing the crank) he is asking for future trouble. There are always contaminants hiding somewhere that will not be cleaned out without taking it completely to pieces. Only an incompetent or unscrupulous mechanic would take this approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G. Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I think Foxy is a little too motor savvy to follow this bad advice. If there are metal bits that have circulated through out the engine and he doesn't strip it completely (including removing the crank) he is asking for future trouble. There are always contaminants hiding somewhere that will not be cleaned out without taking it completely to pieces. Only an incompetent or unscrupulous mechanic would take this approach. Regardless of the majority view of route of repair the unfortunate fellow should do, I can tell you I would be driven to find the cause. The cause itself will naturally determine the level of disassembly needed. This is not a bike that has been severely abused, except the possibility of a time of dry run after an accident tip over. And this tip over/dry run happened, I understand, quite a while back. It just doesn't seem to me this would be the only cause, as bad big ends don't just stop an engine, they are progressive symptom, and there is associated progressive noise [ask me I really do know] that cannot be mistaken for top end clatter or clutch clatter. My money is there's been a failure of a timing chain, or component like that which would immediately cause engine stop. Big ends can do this, but there is other immediate evidence of their failure, like a rod firing itself through the side of the case, or the starter no being able to turn the engine over. A compression test would confirm the operation of the timing system. It's worth a quick try just to see if the compression needle moves. Ciao, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 And yes, I'm aware of the laws governing personal conduct in my home country. I'll remind you that should you become intoxicated and obnoxious you'll find yourself with a public intoxication charge, or arrested and charged with driving under the influence, like one of your good SoCal pals, who I observed doing that, but won't bother to name. Drunken driving kills, and usually not the operator, unfortunately. . Liking a beer and and being able to laugh at oneself do NOT equate to being permanently intoxicated or driving or riding while drunk. Jesus!. (Shakes head.) as I said, joyless wowser. Incidentally I think wowser is a particularly Australian term and I imagined that you'd be bothered to find out its meaning before flying off the handle. Sanctimonious little thing aren't you? As for yoru further advice to Foxy? Sorry but it further shows up your shortcomings and lack of knwledge and understanding of things mechanical. It's also fairly typical of those who are scared of heir limits. I've seen too many people who will go to quite extraordiary lengths to avoid removing a couple more bolts or disconnecting a couple of wires. Why risk going to all that fuss and farting about with the block in the frame when removal of the engine so it can be workedon with ease and comfort on the bench only requires the disconnection of about four wires and the removal of another ten or so easily accessible bolts? As I said before. Daft! Potty mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 But now I must ask: Are all Guzzi dealers worldwide who are replacing the bad cams/lifters completely stripping the motors when they do so? Probably not if they're reimbursed a flat rate for the warranty work. Food for thought... I think the answer to that one is 'It depends'. On the Hydro Calis the cam recall and installation kit is deliberately designed so the cam and lifters can be replaced without disassembling the top end or removing the crank. Nowhere in the instructions for installing the new stuff does it even suggest removing and checking the oil pump! This is particularly bizarre as the oil pump is the only bit of the motor that gets un-filtered oil and is therefore the most likely to suffer damage. I've done several cam recalls on these models and inspected the oil pump every time, even though there is no provision or instruction to do so and certainly no payment. In each case I found the oil pump to be damaged enough to require replacement and ordered another one as a warrantyable item. I remain convinced that people who have had multiple failures after the last 'Factory Fix' continue to do so because their oil pumps are stuffed and weren't checked rather than there still being a problem with the fix itself. The Hydro bikes use a larger oil pump and very light weight oil so any damage to the pump is going to be far more likely to result in a catastrophic loss of pressure. Certainly if I'd done one cam recall on a bike and it failed again shortly thereafter I would have the whole thing on pieces on the bench before I returnrd it to service and would 'Zero Time' it even if it meant that I ended up making not a cent out of it and I had to have a shitfight with the importer over the warranty claim. I persoanally think that Greg is very likely on the right track with the cam failure scenario. 2003-04 was the production period when Guzzi had both their nitriding and heat treating ovens closed. One was being closed permanently and the other was being overhauled and refurbished. During that time one assumes that with their customary cost-cutting zeal they were sending all their hardening work out to 'Guiseppe's Pizza Shop and Nitriding Works' down the road in Innocenti or somewhere and oddly enough it is bikes from this period, (The Hydro models too were from this time.) that seem to be experiencing tempering related failures. As has been stated before though we WON'T KNOW until the engine is stripped and inspected properly. Anything else at this point would, IMHO, be a bodge. Potty mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 'Nother idea: The cam nut, she come off. I've seen that once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 'Nother idea: The cam nut, she come off. I've seen that once. Yeah, but that wouldn't explain the lumps in the sump would it? If the nut comes loose and the locator pin in the cam shears it will bend valves but once that has happened it'll be silent again and won't run. I really think the only option is to pull it apart at this point for a thorough looksee. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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