matt Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 ...couldn't change up from second, changed down to first and stuck there... Sounds typical of pawl spring failure. Michael - I am still having exactly the same issues (even neutral light problem!). Pawl spring is fine. No hang ups on linkage. Changed clutch fluid and went to Red Line Shock proof in the gearbox. Runs fine for the first 5 miles. The neutral switch light even operates normally. After that everything goes south. False neutrals up and down. It's very unnerving and it it is not operator error.. I have owned this bike since new. It now has 30K on it. This gearbox is not functioning properly or the clutch is not operating properly. I am now looking at it as a clutch problem. I'll keep you posted. This is an '01 green V11s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 Matt, I'm assuming you took the plate off and visually inspected the spring? Did you look at the boss that the spring rides on? Perhaps it has some wear, allowing the spring to run 'off center'? I'm just throwing out guesses here- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Matt, I'm assuming you took the plate off and visually inspected the spring? Did you look at the boss that the spring rides on? Perhaps it has some wear, allowing the spring to run 'off center'? I'm just throwing out guesses here- Yes - Plate has been off three times. I'm not sure why I didn't just replace the spring (since I have a new one), but it is definitely not broken. I could replace it, but again, it is definitely not broken. I can remove it rather quickly with all this practice. It will be easier than replacing the clutch, that's for sure. The fact that the bike shifts fine for the first few miles and then develops this problem has me stumped and leads me to believe that is heat related. Also , why does the neutral switch behave normally for the first few miles and then light up all the time, coincidentally with the mis-shifting problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mznyc Posted October 11, 2010 Author Share Posted October 11, 2010 Matt,I also had a new spring on hand and didn't replace it because the general belief is "if it isn't broken don't fix it" here on the forum.Might be just enough stretch in the spring over time to not have enough resistance to make the gear selection clean. I did change clutch fluid but haven't been able to take her out on a test ride yet. Probably next week,if she still has problems then off with her plate! If you do replace spring I would be very interested if it helps. I'm sure you've replaced the clutch fluid at some point but if it's been a while note post #21 and avoid wasting time and money like I did, http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16028 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 : If you do replace spring I would be very interested if it helps. The spring does not need much tension. It merely holds the arm against the selector. All it is doing is overcoming gravity. I discovered that if I bent the spring to relieve some of the pressure against the arm it did not wind up tight against the boss when shifting. That alone should make it last indefinitely. It is when it grabs the boss at the end of its travel and area of flex is greatly reduced that it is prone to fail. On the "freeze up" or missed shifts issue, the first time I changed my fluid, I switched to Spectro synthetic gear oil (because I had it on the shelf). No issues going in and no adjustments made, just a fluid change. Very soon afterward I had similar issues. Sometimes it would not come out of a gear, sometimes false neutrals, sometimes the shifter would not return to the centered position. I opened the cover and found there was quite a bit of accumulated dark paste all over and in the bottom. I really cleaned everything out, took the pawl arm off and smoothed & polished the surfaces where it slid against the selector pins. Going back together I filled it with Redine heavy. I have never had another shifting problem. The polishing of the ramp surfaces made for slicker gearshift feel returning to the centered position but I doubt it did anything else. I think the residual sludge in the box from the original fluid and normal wear was lifted by the new lube and it gummed up the works. The thorough cleaning and Redline is what solved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 : If you do replace spring I would be very interested if it helps. The spring does not need much tension. It merely holds the arm against the selector. All it is doing is overcoming gravity. I discovered that if I bent the spring to relieve some of the pressure against the arm it did not wind up tight against the boss when shifting. That alone should make it last indefinitely. It is when it grabs the boss at the end of its travel and area of flex is greatly reduced that it is prone to fail. On the "freeze up" or missed shifts issue, the first time I changed my fluid, I switched to Spectro synthetic gear oil (because I had it on the shelf). No issues going in and no adjustments made, just a fluid change. Very soon afterward I had similar issues. Sometimes it would not come out of a gear, sometimes false neutrals, sometimes the shifter would not return to the centered position. I opened the cover and found there was quite a bit of accumulated dark paste all over and in the bottom. I really cleaned everything out, took the pawl arm off and smoothed & polished the surfaces where it slid against the selector pins. Going back together I filled it with Redine heavy. I have never had another shifting problem. The polishing of the ramp surfaces made for slicker gearshift feel returning to the centered position but I doubt it did anything else. I think the residual sludge in the box from the original fluid and normal wear was lifted by the new lube and it gummed up the works. The thorough cleaning and Redline is what solved it. Dan - Why would the false neutral /missed shift problem start to rear it's ugly head after a few miles and not immediately? And coincidentally with the neutral light beginning to illuminate all the time? Separate issues? Do you mean there was accumulated paste in the gearbox cover alone or in the cover and in the gearbox bottom? I never saw any dark paste accumulations and there is redline shockproof in there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Matt,I also had a new spring on hand and didn't replace it because the general belief is "if it isn't broken don't fix it" here on the forum.Might be just enough stretch in the spring over time to not have enough resistance to make the gear selection clean. I did change clutch fluid but haven't been able to take her out on a test ride yet. Probably next week,if she still has problems then off with her plate! If you do replace spring I would be very interested if it helps. I'm sure you've replaced the clutch fluid at some point but if it's been a while note post #21 and avoid wasting time and money like I did, http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16028 Michael - I did change clutch fluid. Not a bit of difference in shifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 ...Why would the false neutral /missed shift problem start to rear it's ugly head after a few miles and not immediately? And coincidentally with the neutral light beginning to illuminate all the time? ... In any mechanism; marginal clearance when cold could become interference fit when hot. The neutral sensor is located in the sideplate & works off the shift mechanism fitted on that plate. If there is a problem with the mechanism sticking, this may well show itself at neutral indicator light? Given that the spring/post is an acknowledged issue (subject of MG service bulletin for frames before KT111435-KT112350), I would replace/correct this as a matter of course. It may be that function could be improved by correct adjustment of cammed screw at sideplate, which should be secured in position by locknut. I never fiddled with that & I can't recall the way it works, but there has been discussion of it here before & a search might turn something up. :!: I am not a mechanic or engineer, please take anything I say as only a (mostly ignorant) enthusiast's attempt at helping... KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 Dan - Why would the false neutral /missed shift problem start to rear it's ugly head after a few miles and not immediately? And coincidentally with the neutral light beginning to illuminate all the time? Separate issues? Do you mean there was accumulated paste in the gearbox cover alone or in the cover and in the gearbox bottom? I never saw any dark paste accumulations and there is redline shockproof in there now. The paste was in the bottom, maybe 1/16" thick but there was a film everywhere. I think the fresh / different fluid lifted & spread it and made matters worse. Just a guess. Did you change any other settings in the cover? I'm thinking if your trans works most of the time it is not a faulty part but more like something sticking or slightly out of adjustment. The neutral switch is a normally closed switch. When the spring loaded ball is extended the circuit is closed turning the light on. When installed, the ball is always depressed until it falls into the detent when the selector is in the neutral position. Could it have backed out some? Could there be metal in the lube that is getting in and causing continuity? Could it have been damaged when taking the cover off? All possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mznyc Posted October 17, 2010 Author Share Posted October 17, 2010 Finally got her out for a test ride yesterday after clutch fluid change.no change in false neutrals other than they started pretty quickly before motor was hot.Guess I gotta remove cover again,bummer.I'll probably replace spring as I have a new one on hand.Maybe also that other spring in there and pawl arm. Does Guzzi offer a kit of all?I thought I read that here,Greg,Pete? Mark,how are you making out? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Finally got her out for a test ride yesterday after clutch fluid change.no change in false neutrals other than they started pretty quickly before motor was hot.Guess I gotta remove cover again,bummer.I'll probably replace spring as I have a new one on hand.Maybe also that other spring in there and pawl arm. Does Guzzi offer a kit of all?I thought I read that here,Greg,Pete? Mark,how are you making out? Michael Michael - I took the cover off one more time and changed the pawl spring. It was not broken. Changed it anyway. Same problems - Missed shifts, false neutrals, neutral light coming on when in gear. I have been told by a mechanic that probably cleaning clutch spline would help. Big job. In any case, I believe it is a clutch issue. I have also been told that you have to be positive when shifting, but i don't think this V11, while older (30,000 miles) should shift like an Ambassador. It used to shift better than most Ducs. Been riding my Multi and enjoying it . alas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ani Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Michael - I took the cover off one more time and changed the pawl spring. It was not broken. Changed it anyway. Same problems - Missed shifts, false neutrals, neutral light coming on when in gear. I have been told by a mechanic that probably cleaning clutch spline would help. Big job. In any case, I believe it is a clutch issue. I have also been told that you have to be positive when shifting, but i don't think this V11, while older (30,000 miles) should shift like an Ambassador. It used to shift better than most Ducs. Been riding my Multi and enjoying it . alas After having just been in there replacing a broken spring, I'd say that at least the neutral light can't possibly have anything to do with the clutch condition. There's a small switch screwed to teh gearbox cover acting against the lower gear change wheel. That wheel has got a small cavity just in the neutral position which changes the mode of the neutral switch. I'd guess that you have electrical problems somewhere from (including) the switch up to the light bulb housing. About the actual shifting problems I guess there are many possible causes. On my bike 4th gear takes some force to engage when coming from 2nd -> 3rd -> 4th. Going down 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd the lever doesn't hook to the gear change wheel, but by pressing down and then release the lever it makes contact with the gear change wheel and I can engage 2nd gear. Works quite well for me now that I've learned how to, but I'll reserve some quality time with the adjustment nut and try to make it better. /Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mznyc Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 Hi Matt, Thanks for the update.Sorry things haven't improved,hope you don't have to resort to pulling the clutch I am going to disassemble the the whole pre-selector assembly and replace all three of the springs.I spoke to Micha at MI and he says they have removed that rolled locating pin and that has helped on some problematic shifting on some bikes.Maybe shoddy Guzzi tolerances are more forgiving when that pin is removed,I had never seen this mentioned here ,but he is considered a very reliable and knowledgeable source. The neutral light perplexes me also.It never had a problem before I took the cover off,and has the same symptoms as you since.Something must be slightly miss-aligned. As I've said previously,I'm eliminating my riding style as the cause as shifting was fine,(mostly),for four years. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ani Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 The neutral light perplexes me also.It never had a problem before I took the cover off,and has the same symptoms as you since.Something must be slightly miss-aligned. If you aren't careful when assembling the gear change mechanism, I found it pretty easy to missalign the two wheels one cog offset which I guess will deteriorate shifting as well as the neutral light. It's easy to check though by rotating the mechanism to the end points (1st and 6th gears) and make sure the two wheels are correctly aligned. If neutral light goes on somewhere else but in neutral this could be a reason, but if neutral light lights up in several different gear positions I'd go for an electrical fault since there's exactly one position of the lower wheel that will engage the neutral switch. /Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Guys, before you ruin your bikes completely you should get used to the fact that proper shifting per se has nothing to do with a working or not working clutch. Constantly airing or UV exposition of the the box' internals won't make anything better. These parts like the darkness - that's something I was told nearly 20 years ago and this was one of the best advice I ever got. If your gearbox is broken then it's time to get into it, never before that or just out of curiosity. Instead make sure the linkage has enough play, make sure the levers are parallel to each other, make sure they are centered (same movement to the left and right) and finally make sure they're lubed. A stuck gearbox when hot in most cases is just a matter of sticky leverage, not of air in the clutch line or the wrong colour/manufacturer of the oil and other ideas like that. The six-speed box is a very good one. It's light, quick shifting and totaly reliable. Even when on some bikes "the spring" (and it's boss) are worth some attention hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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