steel timing gears in LM 1/ T3 motor ?

[guzzista]

Greetings. Have not participated on this forum for a few years since selling my Coppa Italia, but, with a new Tonti project on hand, I am again tinkering with Guzzis. Was wondering from the forum members if a steel timing gear set from a early bike ( V7 Sport, 85O Eldo etc would retrofit into a 850 round fin oil filter- in pan engine?.... and speaking of oil pans does anyone know if Pete Roper still makes a windage tray for the Tonti bikes? TIA

[jrt]

I think the best way to answer that question would be to look at the valve timings on a V7 vs. your bike. I don't think an Eldo set will work. Let's see if I can remember why- it might have to do the fitment of the gears on the shafts. I don't have the books in front of me to check valve timings at the moment.

I do know you can buy aluminum timing gears- straight cut and helical- or a set of Al driven gears + steel crankshaft gear. That would certainly work. Heck, I have an unused set of straight-cut Al gears for a round fin tonti I would part with and guarantee they would fit in said application.

 

For a windage tray, if Pete doesn't still sell them, then look at the outside oil filter adapter sold by MGCycle. It includes a windage tray.

Warning though- you will need to cut about a 1/2" wide X 1" long slot in the back where an oil-return tube sticks down.

Attached is a picture of the modified product. It kind of pissed me off, to tell the truth, but it was an easy fix. If you don't have a mill, then you can probably use a dremel. Don't be like me- do it before you try to bolt it up.

[pete roper]

No, the earlier gears won't fit, the oil pump shaft on the loop frame engine a is a parallel shaft, the later engines use a tapered shaft. A very few 850T's had gears that will fit the tapered shaft otherwise no. At least to the best of my knowledge. There is a bloke in the UK who is making steel sets that look like a good thing. They are straight rather than helically cut though which has both advantages and disadvantages.

 

As many people know I strongly advise against the use of any of the alloy gear sets or composite/combination sets with a steel crank gear and alloy cam and oil pump gears. Whenever this subject comes up it produces torrents of invective and insults from at least one board frequenter, I have no idea why but it's truly Pavlovian! The fact remains that I have seen so many alloy gear sets that are damaged or have failed in service that I refuse to install them. And no, it doesn't matter what manufacturer they are from. I am always told that this is because they have been installed wrongly, (The implication is always that they have been installed wrongly by me, although, as I say, I refuse to install them???) or they are not from a single, specified, manufacturer. Believe me. They are three wheels on the end of sticks. It's hard to install them wrong in a way that will destroy the gears. It is either manufacturing or material.

 

If people want to use alloy gears? That's fine by me. It's not my engine being risked but I won't install them as I would quite reasonably be expected to warrant the job and I'm not willing to do that with these parts from any manufacturer. If you do go down this route if you aren't installing them yourself I would enquire about warranty.

 

As for the windage plates for Tontis? Yes, I do still make them and have them in stock ready to go.

 

Pete.

[pete roper]

May be the other way round, earlier tapered, later parallel , can't remember offhand but the situation viz-a-vis ompatability remains the same.

 

Pete

[luhbo]

Later was parallel. The bigger problem is that they've changed the position of the oil pump, probably for a given chain length. This means you can't use the V7 steal gears. Maybe the pump of a Centauro could help for that, but I'm not sure.

 

Besides that it seems as if most if not all available wheel sets have the pump wheel drilled conically. If you come over such a set, ask the vendor how to install it and post your findings, please.

 

Hubert

[guzzista]

Thanks all for the replies. Given the cost of a new steel gear set,(the Caruso ones in UK) it may be worth to modify or make a new pump shaft to accomodate the Guzzi OEM steel oil pump gear. In any case I will first try to match a new pump to the gear and report on that. Thanks Pete, will contact you directly for the windage tray. Cheers

[luhbo]

... it may be worth to modify or make a new pump shaft to accomodate the Guzzi OEM steel oil pump gear. ....

 

It's not so much the shaft, it's the pump housing you need to modify for the different axis distance.

[guzzista]

At this point the 2 choices are:( after measuring protruding distance from front of block to end of oil pump gear as well as where the pump gear meshes with the crank gear) 1) use the bike/s original pump and swap gears from earlier type ( might have to trim the back of the pump gear that sticks backwards into the block) 2) If possible, install the earlier pump complete( after aforementioned trim ?). The early pump has a 16mm conical shaft and the early pump gear fits properly only that way. If the housing has to be trimmed or shaved down, I may just abandon ship on that project and use an automatic chain adjuster, as I have already split the chain and am using an Alfa Romeo master link to keep it together( don't you love when Italian parts interchange?)