V11 Steel fuel Tank Replacement?

[AndyH]

I've been assured EtOH is being added by fuel companies already in spite of the better use the land could be put to, not to mention the substance itself. I have however been using Super Unleaded on the whole which, depending on vendor has little or no EtOH in it, and this is why I've got off lightly so far. Also it would seem from posts above that different years suffer differently. On the whole 2000s were not known for build quality, so I understand, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that this is one area that was got right that year.

I'll keep a watchful eye out though and take nothing on trust!

AndyH

[GuzziMoto]

My wife has a 2001 V11. I live in an area that has been using ethanol longer then most. We have had it for the entire time we have owned the V11 (from new), along with several other bikes with plastic tanks. It was standard here before they built our V11. As I recall federal law required the V11 to be built to be compatible with ethanol.

For a long time I never had any issues with my fuel tanks. Recently the paint on the V11 tank blistered under where the harness for the tank bag covers. Nothing horrible, but there. I do not know if the ethanol in the fuel caused that. Certainly SOMETHING caused it, but since we have had ethanol for years and this happened relatively recently I am doubtful of the connection.

Other bikes I own with plastic tanks have no issues.

Is ethanol good for gasoline? Well, that is a debate with many sides, most of them full of mis-information. What I do know is we have been using it for a long time with minimal issues.

[Guzzirider]

Piaggio have confirmed that the V11 is not on their list of ethanol proof bikes.

 

http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/com_tech_X/comuGuzzi/Common/en/004-2011.pdf

[AndyH]

Piaggio have confirmed that the V11 is not on their list of ethanol proof bikes.

 

http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/com_tech_X/comuGuzzi/Common/en/004-2011.pdf

Hmmm! that's interesting info but... Piaggio simply saying "Non compatible" could embrace all kinds of sin from rotting fuel pipes to blistering tanks, from crumbing O-rings to cracking inlet hoses, from poisoned cats to destructive levels of pinking.

 

Do we assume all or any of the above?

 

AndyH

[Guzzirider]

Not sure and unfortunately there is no visibility about which fuel companies use the highest percentages of ethanol. I understand that higher octane fuels like V Power have less (or even no) ethanol so I am sticking to that rather than using cheap supermarket fuel which possibly has the highest percentage of ethanol.

[docc]

Here in the States, it appears to be only the "unbranded" stations that have pure gasoline.

[GuzziMoto]

Piaggio have confirmed that the V11 is not on their list of ethanol proof bikes.

 

http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/com_tech_X/comuGuzzi/Common/en/004-2011.pdf

Well, I don't see the V11 on that list one way or the other. Which is not surprising since the V11 predates Piaggio.

That list doesn't just say which ARE approved. It list which are AND which aren't approved. But I do not see anything about the V11 one way or the other.

 

As mentioned, to be sold in the USA it was supposed to meet federal standards which required it to be compatible with ethanol.

 

And in some areas of the US (like where I live) it is not allowed to sell non-ethanol gas for road use. The ethanol has taken the place of MTBE as a required additive to oxygenate the fuel or some such.

[Guzzirider]

Interestingly the press release does mention some models that pre-date Piaggio's take over e.g. 2003 Tuono which was sold at the same time as the V11.

 

I don't know for sure that ethanol will harm a V11 but I think there are questions to be asked.

[Skeeve]

As mentioned, to be sold in the USA it was supposed to meet federal standards which required it to be compatible with ethanol.

 

It was supposed to meet Federal standards of the time which required it to be compatible with gasoline with added ethanol not to exceed 10%. The big problem we're facing now is that the devil's own coalition of ADM and environmentalists got the EPA to require 15% alcohol adulteration of our fuel, & who cares what it does to all the existing motors out there using gasoline that were never expected to run on the swill we're going to be forced to buy now...

 

And in some areas of the US (like where I live) it is not allowed to sell non-ethanol gas for road use. The ethanol has taken the place of MTBE as a required additive to oxygenate the fuel or some such.

 

I wonder how much of the blistering/swelling of the plastic fuel tanks we've seen reported is due to ethanol vs. MTBE [which we've since seen banned here in California, but which at one point was actually required to be used to make the special "CA-only" fuel blend sold here. And once the refineries & supply chain were set up to use the stuff, which states continued to receive it even after we were no longer getting it here in CA?] [0]

 

The irony being, that if properly set up for it, ethanol is a pretty excellent fuel for an IC engine, supporting compression ratios up into the ranges seen w/ diesel engines, and that would lead to ERSD [Extremely Rapid Spontaneous Dis-assembly, also known as "Kablooey"] if they were used w/ any form of gasoline. But you still run into problems w/ the energy density being much lower than gasoline, so you'd have to stop to refuel more often.

 

Ride on,

 

[0] It was banned because it rapidly found its way into the water table from leaking tanks. The entire fiasco also led to a massive closure of old stations that had underground tanks that had seemed to work fine w/ the old fuel but developed leaks from the MTBE-laced stuff. MTBE didn't work any better than ethanol, it was just cheaper to make, since it didn't need to use food-based supply stocks...

[GuzziMoto]

15% is not out yet, at least not anywhere that I know of. And when it IS out it is supposed to be an option, like E85, since not all vehicles are approved to use it. No one got upset about E85....

I am not trying to argue in favor or ethanol, it has its pros and cons and they are well known and often mis-represented.

But I do question seemingly all of life's ill's being blamed on ethanol, every time someone has an issue even remotely connected to the fuel system they blame ethanol. But not everybody using ethanol has those issues which makes me question their logic.

 

And I believe MTBE was banned in the USA as a hole, not just CA. And it was required here in MD as well until it was banned at which point ethanol became the standard oxygenate in the fuel. We had ethanol before then but it was only some stations and some brands. After MTBE was banned it was in all the gasoline for road use.

[Skeeve]

And I believe MTBE was banned in the USA as a hole, not just CA. And it was required here in MD as well until it was banned at which point ethanol became the standard oxygenate in the fuel.

 

And therein lies the rub: when oxygenated fuels became mandated back in the early 90s, there were still a significant percentage of cars on the road w/ carburetors, what EFI systems were in use were often Alpha-N systems, and there were still a lot of just plain old cars on the road with marginal, dead, or no catalytic convertors. The 15% hit to fuel economy that we took was worth it in terms of clean air benefits derived from universal use of such fuels.

 

Now, 20 years on, the number of classic cars on the road is dwindling, squeezed from both ends by a lack of kids who're interested in hot rods, government programs preventing the registration of vehicles which can't be made to pass ever-more-restrictive emissions mandates and cash-for-clunkers programs. So what classic cars are out there on the road are usually tuned to pretty tight specs by enthusiast owners. The vast majority of the mid-70s to mid-90s cars are similarly no longer on the road, having been junked years ago & recycled into new cars, which have adaptive EFI and 3-stage cats. So the upshot is, we've surpassed the need for oxygenated fuels: they no longer provide any benefit, and in fact are detrimental to our society due to their added costs [both in pump prices and decreased fuel economy from the fuel you do use...]

 

The reality is that most of the pumps advising you that the fuel you're purchasing may have up to 10% ethanol typically were only dispensing 5% during the early years after the banning of MTBE, but as the EPA put the screws to various regions w/ problem air [like here in SoCal], the percentage of ethanol was increased to show that something was being done.

 

Believe me, I'm a big believer in the beneficial f/x of the smog laws over the years: I'm old enough to remember when L.A. had smog alerts [of any stage, 1 to 3] about 60 days out of 90 during the summer months when I was out of school and would much rather have been playing outside rather than hiding inside trying not to breathe!

 

I can't remember the last time I heard that there was even a stage 1 smog alert in L.A. So clearly, something worked. I just don't think it was the oxygenated fuel, per se, as most of the results had been achieved before that stuff even came along, and most of the rest of the results can be attributed to the other advances in engine management since [OBDII, microprocessors integrated everywhere, adaptive EFI & 3-stage cats], since the newer engines just burn more of the lousy oxygenated stuff to make the same power and emissions as they can get out of real gas.

[tikkanen]

The Tank Shop and V11 replacement aluminum tank??

 

Tried to contact John/TTS some years ago but at that time he didn't have a spine frame to work on. Tontis are readily available but if he has a V11 frame/mock up now pls let me know, Fred.

 

TIA

Søren 

[GuzziMoto]

He has made at least a couple tanks for V11's that I have seen posted here and elsewhere.

[Fred in the shed]

Soren, I spoke to him about a week ago or so and he said he needed pictures of the tank then the bike to be left with him if he took the job on this given other comments here about time to get it made puts the bike out of action for a year!, He has obviously made a few of these tanks now and (very nice to) so you would think he had a template or such to work from if that is possible for an Alloy tank but apprently not!?

 

Fred

[tikkanen]

Thanks, Fred - just got back from one week in splendid, sunny Ischia, Italy. Have to go on a detox now thanks to a 3 gallon daily wine consumption, burp...

 

My problem is I won't leave my bike at TTS for a year, that's a no-no. Guzzirider very generously offered to take Ms. Guzzirider's V11 up to TTS but I know John is a man that works at his own pace.

Have tried other tank makers in Germany but they all need the bike as a mock-up. Cutting a template is not an option; chances are way too big that Mr. Clumsy (me) haven't been accurate enough when measuring.

 

Just noted a new company, Kaffee Maschine in Hamburg, Germany, and they are worth a try. Hamburg is just some 3 hours down the road so I see a winter project coming up :-)

Check out their homepage: http://www.kaffee-maschine.net/html/home.php

..and this is what I'm looking for: http://www.kaffee-maschine.net/html/teile_metall3.php

Edited April 22, 2013 by tikkanen