polebridge Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Hey everyone, Hoping someone can help with some advice. My 2004 Coppa Italia has developed a strange clutch issue. It does not seem to want to fully disengage at stops. It will creep forward unless I hold the break on and sometimes this will cause it to stall. I tried for 3-4 days to bleed the system after replacing the clutch fluid. No improvement. Finally after a lot of frustration I took it to a dealer that I trust. Unfortunately it seems that they can't be completely sure of the problem until they tear the bike down and look at the internal clutch parts. This makes sense to me but, for this reason, they can only give me a range of $1,000 to $3,500 for a repair estimate. Has anyone else had similar issues and, if so, what was the resolutution? I understand that this bike is very rare with maybe less than 30 or 40 in the country. Does anyone have an idea of what it is worth (15K miles)? I am just trying to figure out my best course of action. As of now I am inclined to just wait until they have time to tear it down and keep my fingers crossed that it will be closer to 1K than 3.5K for repairs. Like I said, I trust these guys. I will say that I will probably not be purchasing another Moto Guzzi given the huge expense of what should be simple clutch replacement. Sucks since before this happened I had test ridden a California 1400 and was considering this as my next bike. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRD Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Mike- with only 15K miles on the bike unless it has been abused from constant slipping in start/stop traffic, drag race launches, etc., I would think your clutch has many more miles of service left in it. I might be wrong on this but, if the clutch is slipping allowing the engine to rev higher without accelerating any faster, that is a sign of a worn clutch. Yours is doing just the opposite. These bike have "dry" clutches therefore will make all kinds of strange noises compared to Japanese bikes with "wet clutches". Have you ever listened to a Ducati?!!! Sure sounds to me that your problem can be fixed with an adjustment that you may be able to do yourself. Research this forum in the "How to" section I am sure somewhere in there it describes the clutch adjustment procedures. Also check "this old tractor.com" for directions. Hopefully others with more experience working on these bikes will chime in shortly with additional suggestions. Labor cost at dealer bike shops in the Tampa Bay area are near $100.00 per/hr. so even at that rate I don't think it should take 10 hours to perform a clutch diagnosis and adjustment. Good luck and keep us posted. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 There have been a couple reports of broken master cylinder springs that would prevent the clutch from disengaging. Typically, there is an increase in lever "free play." Master cylinder rebuild is pretty reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polebridge Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thanks everyone, Lots of interesting info out there. You guys have jogged my memory a bit on this. I remember reading a forum post years ago regarding a clutch being put in 'backwards' at the factory. The reason I was reading it was because I now remember the clutch acting very strangely many years ago. At that time the bike would have had very little miles on it. The issues went away as quickly as it started so I sort of forgot about it. Two years ago I had the same issue I am having now after a long ride on a hot day. Clutch was not completely disengaging at stops. I pulled over and let everything cool down and the issue went away. Now it is back to stay it seems. The dealer is saying that it is not the master or slave cylinder as there is good pressure in the system. When I was working on it myself I did notice that the clutch felt right. Good pressure and you could sort of 'sense' that it should be working properly. That is why I gave up and took it in. I think the reason for the high estimate is that the dealer is concerned that once they get in there they may find a lot of issues like damage to the flywheel etc. which will be very costly and time consuming to fix. I also think they may be concerned over getting parts. Once it is on a lift, if they find it needs new parts perhaps they are a bit concerned about the wait time to get them and tying up the lift in their shop. I am a bit torn here but I am feeling that my best course of action may be to just wait for them to do the diagnosis. These guys are a reputable bunch and I have used them in the past with no issues at all. Very, very frustrating though! I am getting too old for this sort of thing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Phil Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thanks everyone, Lots of interesting info out there. You guys have jogged my memory a bit on this. I remember reading a forum post years ago regarding a clutch being put in 'backwards' at the factory. The reason I was reading it was because I now remember the clutch acting very strangely many years ago. At that time the bike would have had very little miles on it. The issues went away as quickly as it started so I sort of forgot about it. Two years ago I had the same issue I am having now after a long ride on a hot day. Clutch was not completely disengaging at stops. I pulled over and let everything cool down and the issue went away. Now it is back to stay it seems. The dealer is saying that it is not the master or slave cylinder as there is good pressure in the system. When I was working on it myself I did notice that the clutch felt right. Good pressure and you could sort of 'sense' that it should be working properly. That is why I gave up and took it in. I think the reason for the high estimate is that the dealer is concerned that once they get in there they may find a lot of issues like damage to the flywheel etc. which will be very costly and time consuming to fix. I also think they may be concerned over getting parts. Once it is on a lift, if they find it needs new parts perhaps they are a bit concerned about the wait time to get them and tying up the lift in their shop. I am a bit torn here but I am feeling that my best course of action may be to just wait for them to do the diagnosis. These guys are a reputable bunch and I have used them in the past with no issues at all. Very, very frustrating though! I am getting too old for this sort of thing . If you are going to own a Guzzi or any other Italian motorcycle for that matter then you need to "man up" to issues like this and stop sooking about being too old and its all too hard,and I was going to buy a Cali 1400, but now....geez. Its all part of the deal owning an Italian bike, so get used to it or buy a bullet proof Japanese bike because thats what they are good at. There are plenty of owners that have learn't how to open a tool box and tackle jobs like a clutch change themselves if they dont trust the dealer or he's too far away or too costly. Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 thats a bit harsh Phil... I would a just said... If ya like ya bike fix it, if it means nothing to you trade it in ps: cant help with the clutch issue sorry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 While I do kinda agree with the last two posts, I also have to point out that while a clutch job on a Guzzi is harder than it is on most Japanese bikes it is also a less common thing to have to do. And if you do this right this one time you will probably never have to do this again as long as you own this bike. Guzzi's, along with Ducati's and other more exotic bikes, are never going to be as easy and cheap to own as a Japanese bike. If they were the Japanese would not be able to sell very many bikes. In the end, you have to decide if you like the bike or not and whether it is worth the time and / or money to fix and keep. As far as the new Cali goes, if you want one but that would be something that would stop you from buying one then you really should not buy one. But to me that seems rather silly. The clutch on your V11 is not a bad design, nor is the clutch on the new Cali, nor are they the same design. Any bike with the motor and trans set up like they are on a Guzzi is going to be more work to change the clutch than it is on most other bikes. But Guzzi made the clutch so that you don't have to do that very often. It is a fair trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polebridge Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks everyone, Lots of interesting info out there. You guys have jogged my memory a bit on this. I remember reading a forum post years ago regarding a clutch being put in 'backwards' at the factory. The reason I was reading it was because I now remember the clutch acting very strangely many years ago. At that time the bike would have had very little miles on it. The issues went away as quickly as it started so I sort of forgot about it. Two years ago I had the same issue I am having now after a long ride on a hot day. Clutch was not completely disengaging at stops. I pulled over and let everything cool down and the issue went away. Now it is back to stay it seems. The dealer is saying that it is not the master or slave cylinder as there is good pressure in the system. When I was working on it myself I did notice that the clutch felt right. Good pressure and you could sort of 'sense' that it should be working properly. That is why I gave up and took it in. I think the reason for the high estimate is that the dealer is concerned that once they get in there they may find a lot of issues like damage to the flywheel etc. which will be very costly and time consuming to fix. I also think they may be concerned over getting parts. Once it is on a lift, if they find it needs new parts perhaps they are a bit concerned about the wait time to get them and tying up the lift in their shop. I am a bit torn here but I am feeling that my best course of action may be to just wait for them to do the diagnosis. These guys are a reputable bunch and I have used them in the past with no issues at all. Very, very frustrating though! I am getting too old for this sort of thing . If you are going to own a Guzzi or any other Italian motorcycle for that matter then you need to "man up" to issues like this and stop sooking about being too old and its all too hard,and I was going to buy a Cali 1400, but now....geez. Its all part of the deal owning an Italian bike, so get used to it or buy a bullet proof Japanese bike because thats what they are good at. There are plenty of owners that have learn't how to open a tool box and tackle jobs like a clutch change themselves if they dont trust the dealer or he's too far away or too costly. Ciao Strong words for someone that does not know me. I have turned plenty of wrenches in my day. I have pulled the heads off of overhead can engines to fix bent valves. Always maintained my Guzzi myself including recently fixing a broken pawl spring. My problem is two fold. Not enough space in my garage to have a bike laid up for weeks while I learn how to fix it and wait for parts. The other issue is time which, for some reason I have yet to figure out, I just don't seem to have much of anymore. What spare time I have I would like to actually ride a bike instead of constantly fixing it. I understand that Japanese bikes are less maintenance but the world is made up of more than just Guzzi and Japanese bikes. I have owned Japanese bikes in addition to BMWs, Triumphs, Aprilias, and Ducatis. NONE of these bikes combined (all maintained by me) have ever given me as many headaches as this Guzzi. That said the Guzzi is my favorite of all of them. It is just coming down to practicality. If I wind up replacing it I can assure it will not be with a Japanese bike (not that I have anything against them) but regardless of what I buy I am 100% sure it will require less fixing and I will be doing more riding which is what this is really all about right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshguzzi Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Well said! I've rebuilt a bevel drive 900SS, but would now find tackling a V11 clutch a real challenge, partly due to the physical size of it, but also for all the reasons you have described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRD Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Polebridge- Just curious if you have had time to check the master cylinder and slave cylinder out as Docc suggested? I am a really big fan of starting a project by replacing/rebuilding the cheap and simple stuff first. Please don't get annoyed and or frustrated with the bike. Having worked as a bike mechanic for several major brands, I don't care what brand the bike is, they are all a pain in the ass! Have you ever tried repairing the electric start engage spring on a relatively simple Yamaha XS650? Yea, let's mount the starter motor under the engine all the way in the back to make it almost impossible to get at or work on. Or worse yet, the starter motors on the Virago series. Try replacing leaky push rod tube seals on a BMW boxer? Another one that comes to mind is the Honda CX500. They like to call themselves water cooled versions of the Guzzi. But I don't recall any Guzzi with a reputation for eating cam chains, and self destructing cooling fans that are attached to the end of the cam shafts. And those clutches aren't any easier to get at. Don't get me wrong, these bikes were all great back in the day, but each one just like newer bikes have potential weak points when it comes working on them. Good luck with your bike and please keep us posted. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Phil Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks everyone, Lots of interesting info out there. You guys have jogged my memory a bit on this. I remember reading a forum post years ago regarding a clutch being put in 'backwards' at the factory. The reason I was reading it was because I now remember the clutch acting very strangely many years ago. At that time the bike would have had very little miles on it. The issues went away as quickly as it started so I sort of forgot about it. Two years ago I had the same issue I am having now after a long ride on a hot day. Clutch was not completely disengaging at stops. I pulled over and let everything cool down and the issue went away. Now it is back to stay it seems. The dealer is saying that it is not the master or slave cylinder as there is good pressure in the system. When I was working on it myself I did notice that the clutch felt right. Good pressure and you could sort of 'sense' that it should be working properly. That is why I gave up and took it in. I think the reason for the high estimate is that the dealer is concerned that once they get in there they may find a lot of issues like damage to the flywheel etc. which will be very costly and time consuming to fix. I also think they may be concerned over getting parts. Once it is on a lift, if they find it needs new parts perhaps they are a bit concerned about the wait time to get them and tying up the lift in their shop. I am a bit torn here but I am feeling that my best course of action may be to just wait for them to do the diagnosis. These guys are a reputable bunch and I have used them in the past with no issues at all. Very, very frustrating though! I am getting too old for this sort of thing . If you are going to own a Guzzi or any other Italian motorcycle for that matter then you need to "man up" to issues like this and stop sooking about being too old and its all too hard,and I was going to buy a Cali 1400, but now....geez.Its all part of the deal owning an Italian bike, so get used to it or buy a bullet proof Japanese bike because thats what they are good at. There are plenty of owners that have learn't how to open a tool box and tackle jobs like a clutch change themselves if they dont trust the dealer or he's too far away or too costly. Ciao Strong words for someone that does not know me. I have turned plenty of wrenches in my day. I have pulled the heads off of overhead can engines to fix bent valves. Always maintained my Guzzi myself including recently fixing a broken pawl spring. My problem is two fold. Not enough space in my garage to have a bike laid up for weeks while I learn how to fix it and wait for parts. The other issue is time which, for some reason I have yet to figure out, I just don't seem to have much of anymore. What spare time I have I would like to actually ride a bike instead of constantly fixing it. I understand that Japanese bikes are less maintenance but the world is made up of more than just Guzzi and Japanese bikes. I have owned Japanese bikes in addition to BMWs, Triumphs, Aprilias, and Ducatis. NONE of these bikes combined (all maintained by me) have ever given me as many headaches as this Guzzi. That said the Guzzi is my favorite of all of them. It is just coming down to practicality. If I wind up replacing it I can assure it will not be with a Japanese bike (not that I have anything against them) but regardless of what I buy I am 100% sure it will require less fixing and I will be doing more riding which is what this is really all about right?Two issues here.....1.......I have a clutch problem.......solution, WORST CASE scenario for $650us You buy a complete RAM single plate clutch and flywheel assembly from MG Cycles and with your afore mentioned skills on the tools you spend a Saturday installing it, don't even need a clutch alignment tool. Problem solved for $650. 30 min research on the Internet would have sourced that info but hey I'm happy to help. Issue 2......My life's to hard to own an Italian bike and the hassles that go along with that......solution, go and buy something that suits your current life, ie a Japanese bike OR harden up and accept the inevitable and occasional dramas of Guzzi ownership and find a way. Issue 1 is for motorcycle forums and issue 2 is for personal reflection and decision making. Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Clutch not fully disengaging: Low on fluid, flex/soft hose, leaky master cylinder, obstructed mechanism are likely culprits. You said a mechanic checked this all as good? Hmmm. Obviously, it's disengaging, just not 100% and it's creeping when stopped. What is "good pressure"? Is it pushing the right distance? Could you have good pressure in cylinder and have a soft brake line? It sounds like it's only slightly out of range. You're saying that if the factory installed the clutch backwards it would display this issue ten years later? Wow, dunno. I'd concentrate on the hydraulic system first. (BTW- if you post this thread on Wild Guzzi and you can bet someone will offer you $500 to take this terrible bike off your hands) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-E-Ross Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 There is someone with a WTB ad for a Coppa Italia in the classified pages of the NMGOC web site. This might be the time to sell and get that California! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy york Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Sorry you are in such a dilema. I have over 100,000 miles on the stock clutch. Unless there is something mechanical wrong in the clutch package it shouldn't be an issue. And I don't ride like an old man either LOL !!! It really sounds like an issue with the hydraulics. Could be a seal in there. wouldn't take much for the system to "feel" ok, but sitting at a red light with the clutch pulled in could "leak down " the system till you take off. then you have given the master cylinder some fresh fluid with shifting gears to the next red light. rinse and repeat. Does ti work OK on extended rides and just going up and down with normal riding ? andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Another one that comes to mind is the Honda CX500. They like to call themselves water cooled versions of the Guzzi. But I don't recall any Guzzi with a reputation for eating cam chains, and self destructing cooling fans that are attached to the end of the cam shafts. And those clutches aren't any easier to get at. Don't get me wrong, these bikes were all great back in the day, but each one just like newer bikes have potential weak points when it comes working on them. Good luck with your bike and please keep us posted. Jerry all right ALLRIGHT... Jerry jerry jerry... now ya gone and started the topic off topic LOL having had the CX... A, B, D, E and TC... Id like to say BOLLICKS Na I have heard over seas there have been cam chain issues BUT both my A and B did 100,000+km the B even blew a water pump seal ran out of water and I still rode it in the red at 100+km for 35oK's and all it did was warp the rear casing The E eurosport yeah auto cam chain tensioner chewed it up 2 times The TC turbo gave it death and never had any issues Ohh and with that bloody water pump seal going on the B 20mins and me and Id have the engine on the bench ready to change that bloody seal HEY remember you did start it LMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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