Worn Rocker Arm Washers - what else?

[Scud]

Here is a picture of the copper (I think) rocker arm washers from my 03 Lemans. I just replaced all eight of these and they were all deeply grooved. New washers also pictured for comparison.

 

 

If you've seen some of my other posts about this motorcycle, you might recall that I am uncertain about the mileage and have been riding with known low oil pressure for a few thousand miles (and it was probably low for a long time before I measured the pressure). The wear on these washers is not new; I noticed it when I re-torqued the heads and before I had measured the oil pressure.

 

Thread about the bike here

 

Thread about oil pressure issue here

 

Given this amount of wear, it seems to suggests either more mileage than I thought, or some time running without enough oil, or perhaps some other explanation...

 

My question: how concerned should I be about wear to other soft parts, such as connecting rod bearings and main bearings?

[footgoose]

now I'm reeeeely interested to know the mileage of that bike. Scud, the washers, where do they go, ...at the ends of the arm? is there pressure on them? The pivot rod has some wear in a couple spots. Is it substantial (measurable)?

[Scud]

Assembly - everything goes in as laid out. That picture is of the LH intake (other 3 are similar). When installed on the bike, the left of the picture is the bottom. The deep grooves in the washers are from the motion of the rocker arm; the flip side of the copper washers are smooth, they go against a cast part of the head on the bottom and against the spring on the top.

 

Pressure - the spring (2nd item from right in picture) puts pressure on the assembly. The copper washers are the softest parts and are intended to wear so the rocker arm does not wear.

 

Pivot rod - the part that slides inside the rocker arm is in nice condition. The two things that look like wear are:

1. the dark band lines up with the oil journal in the center, and
2. the striped bands near the hole is where the spring seats. There is no noticeable wear on the pivot rods (sliding fingernail for test).

Miles? - It does remain a mystery... but however many miles are on it - it's still a really strong motor and does not burn oil.  And I have a spare low-mileage motor in the garage ready to volunteer or donate parts if needed.  

 

Has anybody else seen this level of wear on these washers? If so, how many miles and what else (if anything) needed attention at that time?

[leroysch]

[andy york]

In my Non-professional opinion, It looks like a lack of oil / oil pressure.

There are 115,000 miles on my beast of burden and mine do not look like that.

It would probably soldier on but if it were mine, I would give it a good

going through. Buy a gasket kit and the pull it down.

If you have gotten this far you can do the rest also . Its not that complicated.I would like to say 

that the big ends are somewhat first in line to get oil, but memory is fading    lol

At least pull the front cover and check the oil pump and the faces of the gears in the pump.

something is amiss if you had low pressure. thats where I would start.

keep us posted 

andy

[Scud]

Thanks Andy for the comparative data point.

 

I was planning to swap out the oil pump from my parts bike as an experiment soon. But by that point, I will already have access to the big ends - and it's only 6 bolts to pull a head (one of which has a small oil leak)...  I think I can do all that with the engine still in the frame. 

 

While I'm there, I suppose I may as well look at the main bearings - and if I'm not mistaken, the engine has to come out of the frame for that, right?

[gstallons]

You do not need to pull the head . The small leak is the O-rings at the base of the rocker arm mounts .

[GuzziMoto]

I have said this before, I'll say it again. A motor that does not burn oil and runs great is not a motor I would be tearing apart.

The wear to the washers is from the pressure of the spring, as mentioned. That wear is not due to an oil pressure issue. Those parts are not directly pressure fed. They rely on oil splashing off the rocker, which is pressure fed. The wear could be from poor oil or oil beak down between oil changes. A splash fed part may be more susceptible to oil lubrication issues.

If you want to look for possible oil pressure (or lack there of) issues, I would check the mains and / or the cam.

[Scud]

Thanks guys. I think I will try swapping the oil pump and pressure relief valve from my spare engine. While I am there maybe I can inspect some of the other bearings - will try to figure out from the manual, but I haven't done that type of work before and may need some hand-holding.

 

Re leak:  I replaced the O-rings when I re-torqued the heads in March (9 months ago) - the current leak is very small. A little Simple Green and toothbrush takes care of it. It seems to be coming from the rear outside portion of the RH head (like it's a head gasket leak). This isn't bothering me very much.

 

Re oil break down:  the previous owner had a cheap car-store filter in there, and I therefore assume he used cheap organic (not synthetic oil) - so maybe that's part of the wear puzzle.

 

Re oil source for those washers:  I think they might get pressurized oil. This is what I think is happening:

1. pressurized oil is pumped into the pivot rod
2. it goes though the center hole to lubricate the rocker arm/pivot rod contact area (inside the rocker arm)
3. it escapes between the two washers and the ends of the rocker arms (in the grooved area in picture above)

The top washer and spring must rely on splashed oil, but it seems the contact area between the rocker arm and washer gets some pressure. I can start it again this weekend to see if the new washers make any difference to the pressure readings. That would be good, fun science.

 

I really would rather not rebuild a motor if not needed. I'll see how much more evidence I can collect.

[andy york]

 

I really would rather not rebuild a motor if not needed. I'll see how much more evidence I can collect.

 

Agree with the above statement but if there is a problem it needs to be corrected.

 

The rocker arms are under pressure / or lack thereof. I believe I read that you said this motor had a lack of oil pressure .

If so, my line of thinking would be to start with the oil pump.If it looks good, it probably is. Next are the big ends.

In theory, you should use new rod bolts on reassembly. Or wait on those, pop a head off and take a look at the 

tappets and camshaft. If your batting a .1000, then try and look at the big ends.

All can be accomplished with motor in frame. Mirrors and a couple of light sources make checking the big ends easier.

Did you check the oil filter? sometimes the sealing ring will stick to the filter console. Then when you put new filter on 

you have 2 O-rings ...BOOOM   loss of oil pressure..... In any case     if the above happened, you should check it all anyway 

if the engine was run for any length of time. 

  Curious minds will follow this till the problem is found !!!

andy

 

[GuzziMoto]

What I meant when I said "those parts are not directly pressure fed" is that they do not directly receive pressurized oil as the rocker arm does, nor do they require the pressurized oil to do what they do as a plain bearing does.

 

Looking at your pressure relief valve is a good idea. As has been mentioned, no matter how much oil the oil pump actually pumps if that valve does not do its job there can be no pressure. As has also been said before, low oil pressure would affect the plain bearings first so looking at the mains and big end bearings along with the cam would be a good place to look.

The oil filter is also a good thing to check, but I thought you had already been down that road in previous threads.

[GuzziMoto]

 

 

Agree with the above statement but if there is a problem it needs to be corrected.

 

 

.....

 

 

  Curious minds will follow this till the problem is found !!!

andy

 

 

I think where he is at right now is trying to determine if there really is a problem to begin with. So far there is only a lower oil pressure reading than expected along with this small amount of wear.

[motoguzznix]

Scud

 

I just dimounted the heads of a Ballabio with 15k miles on the clock and very similar rocker washer wear. 

 

Reason for the tear down was high oil consumption of about 0,8 l/1000km. We found worn valves and guides that could explain the the oil consumption. The owner used 5W40 high quality oil. We replaced all valves and the exhaust guides and put it all together again. I convinced him to use a higher grade oil in the future and he bought a 15W50 that will go into the engine soon. I am very curious if the oil consumption issue is cleared now. 

 

The washer wear is new to me - nerver seen that before even on engines with very high mileage. Maybe the oil was too thin or an oil pressure issue? Or a combination of the two? I will put my attention on the oil pressure of that engine. Thanks for this discussion that puts a new light on the washer wear. 

[Scud]

 

 

  Curious minds will follow this till the problem is found !!!

andy

 

I think where he is at right now is trying to determine if there really is a problem to begin with. So far there is only a lower oil pressure reading than expected along with this small amount of wear.

 

 

That's a good summary, and yes, I've verified the oil filter is on correctly (twice) and am using high-quality synthetic oil.

 

Rocker covers (and some other bits) are off at the powder-coaters - so need to wait a bit before I can run it again. I will run it first with only the washers changed - to see if that made any difference. Then I will look into the oil pump, pressure relief and related bits.

[Don G]

Changing out the washers will not even be noticed, they will have no descernable effect on anything. I would just flip them over and carry on. Oil pessure relief valve should be inspected as well as sump gaskets as there may be  a leak there which could be the culprit(cavitation).  DonG