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ANSWERED Best Relay

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Prior to replacing all with Omron, (no failures yet- low use) I used GEI. I had 1 (#5) fail with about 600 mi usage. They are sealed and I believe I got them from a forum member or link. My other failure, also #5, was a Siemens. Another forum member, bikeseamus, here in Indiana, gave much praise to Panasonic. If I ever get low (lol I have a dozen or more GEI and Omron) I will try them.

 

I met bikeseamus a couple years ago at a vintage meet. He rode in on the only other V11 LM I've seen in Indiana. A nice Rosso Corsa. I seem to recall him saying it once belonged to another Hoosier. Maybe Chuck?

Yeah, That's Rosie. I rescued her from Alabama in fairly rough shape. She's a sweetheart.

Strangely enough, Irode the Mighty Scura down to the Duck dealer in Indy this fall looking for an Ohlins part, and there was a Rosso sitting in the parking lot. It *wasn't* Rosie. (!) Someone in Indy had dropped it off for an oil change.. so there's another one around that we don't know about.

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Since only the #1 ("Starter") relay uses both outputs (5-pin/ SPDT/ Form C), this is the Panasonic 5-pin the "1 FORM C" contact arrangement.  [also known as a CO ("change over" contact arrangement) showing both NO and NC ratings]

 

I'm trying to discern what part of the Panasonic relay is only rated for 10 amps continuous?

 

edit: [Answer: the NC contact which would not be good for Relay#1 in the early V11.]

 

Panasonic spec sheet:

gallery_328_223_15184.png

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I don't know why one side of a relay would be rated for less currant than the other side. One thing to remember is that a relay is just a two position set of contacts that is controlled by a separate power feed. When no power is applied to the control circuit the relay bridges the controlled feed to the NC (Normally Closed) contact. Apply power and the relay switches to bridge the controlled feed over to the NO (Normally Open) contact. NO and NC do not refer to the normal running state of the contact but only to the state of the relay when power is not applied to the control circuit of the relay. Why that NC contact would be rated for less amps than the NO contact is surprising to me but I assume it is because that side of the relay is not built as heavy duty.

I am no electrical engineer, but I do work with relays and control logic. I defer to Roy whenever possible on electrical things. I assume he will be along shortly to explain what I don't understand.

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The Normally Open contacts are held closed by the coil which is stronger than the spring which closes the Normally Closed contact

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Docc,

 

Since I had an extra and "Inquiring mind need to know" I hacked one open so you could compare to historic data. It's well sealed is made of high quality components. Apologies for the pic quality as the phone is not the best suited for close up photography. I also cut a few winding's in the process.

 

 

gallery_10329_231_2710467.jpg

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I knew you guys would come through! "NC" and "NO" make perfect sense now, along with why their ratings differ. And now: a  :notworthy:  sacrificial relay!

 

If I understand correctly, (on early V11), the 10 amp NC contacts are carrying the current through Relay #1 ("Starter" Relay) to power the 20 amp NO contacts in Relay #2 ("Headlight" relay) which includes the headlamp, horns, warning lights, brake light, tachometer, and charging reference.

 

**[EDIT: This is only the case with a *Stressed* Relay#1. Do the Easy Livin' Test to see if your Relay #1 is Stressed :blink: , or Livin' Easy :rasta: ]**

 

(I realize the vendor says the Panasonic is 20amp/35amp, but that is not the continuous current rating: 10a NC/20a NO continuous)

 

All of the other relay positions should be fine with this Panasonic relay.

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I see these OMRON on Amazon, but can't seem to generate their spec sheet:  High Current G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12

https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Relays-Relay-12VDC-piece/dp/B00M1ZLJIE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1484616006&sr=8-4&keywords=spdt+mini+relay

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Here is the spec sheet on this relay. It appears to have significantly higher ratings including 20 amps continuous carry current on the Normally Closed side (35 amps continuous on the NO side, and MUCH higher inrush ratings). This is the most robust micro relay I have seen specs on.

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8he.pdf

 

It looks to have very slightly larger case dimensions, including 1.6mm taller, so make sure your seat has the clearance for them:

https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/search/?cat=1&did=6&prd=auto-iso&lang=en

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The early VIIs like my 01 pass the headlight current through the NC contact of relay 1 then it goes through the NO contact of relay 2, 5 - 6 Amps (2 relays in series)

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif

 

The later VIIs, I think when they dropped the electric petcock only use the NC relay 1 contact to power the coil of relay 2, about 100 milliamps so the relays get a fairly easy life.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif

Each scheme has advantages.

The early one will never have a problem with Startus Interuptus because the start relay doesn't pull current through the ignition switch.

 

BTW some of the other Guzzis use a Normally Closed sidestand relay, the EV for instance.

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I ran across one of Kiwi_Roy's earlier posts (http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12326&p=201362), where he measured various loads in these circuits and Relay#5 is carrying 22.5 amps.  No wonder Relays rated for 20 amps suffer there (and get hot). I have temperature readings on mine, so it may be an indicator if this higher rated OMRON runs cooler.

 

Thanks, Kiwi_Roy! :thumbsup:

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When this discussion reaches half time , what is the best relay to put in each position ?

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Sounds like that could depend on your wiring. I've always been in the camp that the V11 relays are a critical fail point in the system and it is desirable to use the very best " 5-pin" relays across the range of positions. This way, they can be moved around to any position.

 

Assuming this High Current G8HE OMRON relay is commonly available, why not use the highest rated relay available, assuming the cost is nominal ? (I just spent $38US/ shipped for five relays)

 

EDIT 19 Jan 2017: best (US) source I have found so far ($3.08US each):

http://www.onlinecomponents.com/omron-electronics-g8he1c7trdc12.html?p=42670683&utm_source=findchips&utm_medium=inventoryrefferal&utm_campaign=findchips

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"Livin' Easy Test"

(for Relay #1):

 

*If* your #1 Starter Relay is "livin' easy" :rasta: , the only really stressed relay is  #5   [Fuel injection/ignition/fuel pump relay in Position #5 moves over 20 amps in the NO position]. Use a serious relay in Position #5, rated over 20 amps NO. [ OMRON G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12 ]

 

#2 (headlights etc) isn't getting off particularly easy, but any any "high quality"  :rolleyes:  relay rated 20 amps NO should do okay there.

 

Here's an easy way to see if your (later V11) Relay#1 is livin' easy :rasta: :

 

Pull Fuse 5, and Relay #1. With an Ohm meter, check continuity between the Fuse connector (outboard) and contact 30 for the relay (also outboard).

 

Failed test = continuity. You have the *stressed*  :blink: #1 Relay moving over 10 amps through the NC contacts. Use a High Current Relay in Position #1 (rated over 10 amps in the NC position). [ High Current OMRON G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12 ]

 

If Fuse 5 is continuous to Relay#2/contact 30 (outboard) instead, your #1 Relay is livin' easy  :rasta: but you're starting the V11 through the Ignition Switch :unsure: (the Ignition Switch should always be cleaned and kept serviced, regardless):

gallery_328_223_893815.jpeg

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Please do this simple *easy livin' test:rasta:  (continuity from Fuse5 to Relay#1) on your V11 and post results , and let's see if we can nail down where the wiring may be different or may have changed.

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