Joe caruso timing gear install

[Lucky Phil]

4 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

Gears are better than chains in every way but one- noise. Gears are noisy, chains are quiet. So any bike that has to pass any sort of noise test (EPA here) benefits from using a cam chain instead of gears. Even HD went to chains in their big twins, because they trade the cam noise for exhaust/intake noise. 

Functionally? Probably not noticeable, if the chain is good and the tensioner is adequate. 

Still, I'll have a set in mine eventually, because riding an Italian motorcycle and asking why something makes sense is a silly thing.

Noise from cam gears is not really an issue. Honda V4's like my old RC30 and VFR750 had gear driven cams and met noise regs for road bikes. They incorporated backlash gears with the cam drive gears to help them run quieter. Ducati Desmosedici's are gear driven cams and are noise compliant road bikes. Lots of engines use a gear and chain hybrid drive for the cams these days.

The Caruso gears in the V11 run very quiet. I can hear them but thats because I'm listening for them otherwise I wouldnt be able to tell them from the chain driven cam.

 

Ciao

 

[sp838]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

The Caruso gears in the V11 run very quiet. I can hear them but thats because I'm listening for them

I can't wait to hear that whirring sound 

[gstallons]

I will never forget the first time I heard a gear drive set-up in a engine …. Yeow . I thought George Thorogood was inside of that V-8 !

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, gstallons said:

I will never forget the first time I heard a gear drive set-up in a engine …. Yeow . I thought George Thorogood was inside of that V-8 !

The noise from gear drives varies depending on many factors including engine harmonics but also mesh clearance cold and hot. I've had engines that wine when cold and have a slight clatter when hot. As the alloy crankcases heat up and the bearing centers that support the gears move away from each other the whine caused by tight clearances dissipates and is replaced by gear backlash noise. depending on many many variables is the volume of noise in hot and cold conditions.

I was in the pits back in 1988 at Oran park round of the WSB talking to Robert Dunlop who was riding a Honda RC30 that year as a privateer and hung around to hear it start up before the first race. That was the first time I'd heard an RC30 with the backlash gears removed and it was quite noticeable. Although Honda would have run a decent amount of tooth clearance and relied on the backlash gears a fair amount as it was a production engine system. I owned an RC30 at the time so was interested in what modifications he was running in WSB.

The list of engines that have used cam gear drives is like a who's who of brilliant engineering. Manx Norton, bevel drive Ducati, Guzzi V8, ahem...the Guzzi big block V twin and of course the venerable Rolls Royce Merlin.

If anyone needs any more convincing after reading that list I cant help you

Hears some engineering art to ponder.

Ducati Desmosedici V4RR

Ferrari V12

Ciao

[knumbnutz]

The noise from gear drives varies depending on many factors including engine harmonics but also mesh clearance cold and hot. I've had engines that wine when cold and have a slight clatter when hot. As the alloy crankcases heat up and the bearing centers that support the gears move away from each other the whine caused by tight clearances dissipates and is replaced by gear backlash noise. depending on many many variables is the volume of noise in hot and cold conditions.
I was in the pits back in 1988 at Oran park round of the WSB talking to Robert Dunlop who was riding a Honda RC30 that year as a privateer and hung around to hear it start up before the first race. That was the first time I'd heard an RC30 with the backlash gears removed and it was quite noticeable. Although Honda would have run a decent amount of tooth clearance and relied on the backlash gears a fair amount as it was a production engine system. I owned an RC30 at the time so was interested in what modifications he was running in WSB.
The list of engines that have used cam gear drives is like a who's who of brilliant engineering. Manx Norton, bevel drive Ducati, Guzzi V8, ahem...the Guzzi big block V twin and of course the venerable Rolls Royce Merlin.
If anyone needs any more convincing after reading that list I cant help you
Hears some engineering art to ponder.
Ducati Desmosedici V4RR

Ferrari V12

Ciao

You forgot the 15yrs of VFR750 and 800s.

Thats certainly a who's who list tho.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[luhbo]

You're missing the british gear towers :)
Nonetheless, I think the times of gears were over once the chains were reliable enough.

[Pressureangle]

23 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Noise from cam gears is not really an issue. Honda V4's like my old RC30 and VFR750 had gear driven cams and met noise regs for road bikes. They incorporated backlash gears with the cam drive gears to help them run quieter. Ducati Desmosedici's are gear driven cams and are noise compliant road bikes. Lots of engines use a gear and chain hybrid drive for the cams these days.

The Caruso gears in the V11 run very quiet. I can hear them but thats because I'm listening for them otherwise I wouldnt be able to tell them from the chain driven cam.

 

Ciao

 

Liquid cooled engines are far quieter overall. The fact that Honda used backlash gears proves my point.

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, luhbo said:

You're missing the british gear towers
Nonetheless, I think the times of gears were over once the chains were reliable enough.

I think the days of gears were over once accountants and not engineers started running businesses.

Ciao

[luhbo]

28 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

Liquid cooled engines are far quieter overall. The fact that Honda used backlash gears proves my point.

I'd say backlash gears firstly reduce backlash.

BTW: The V7 up to the Sport engines had  skewed timing gears. Whether that had technical reasons or maybe was a matter of availability (FIAT e.g.) - can't say. At least you could fine-tune the timing.

[MartyNZ]

On 5/18/2019 at 12:53 AM, gstallons said:

Question : what type of metal are these gears made of ?

Joe says his gears are made of EN24T steel. This British standard is similar to US standard AISI 4340. It's pretty good stuff that could be heat treated up to ultra high strength.

"T" condition has good strength yet can still be machined. (tensile strength 850/1000 N/mm² / 123-145 KSI)

[GuzziMoto]

On 6/18/2019 at 8:08 AM, Lucky Phil said:

Yes 8 X 1mm thread. Torque, 2-2.2 kgm with loctite 601.

Ciao

Any chance someone on here has the torque specs for the other bolts/nuts?

I am finally getting round to installing a set of Joe's gears, and want to make sure I properly torque it putting it back together. I assume everything gets loctite as well. I don't have any Green loctite, just the standard Blue or Red. Does it need Green? Green sounds similar to Red.

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Any chance someone on here has the torque specs for the other bolts/nuts?

I am finally getting round to installing a set of Joe's gears, and want to make sure I properly torque it putting it back together. I assume everything gets loctite as well. I don't have any Green loctite, just the standard Blue or Red. Does it need Green? Green sounds similar to Red.

Loctite on the oil pump nut only, red. 

Ciao 

[GuzziMoto]

On 3/29/2022 at 3:12 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Loctite on the oil pump nut only, red. 

Ciao 

Phil, I only quoted you to catch your attention because you have done this and know what you are doing.

I am still hoping someone has the torque specs for the cam shaft nut and the crank shaft nut. But after taking it apart I am realizing I don't have a tool that can reach the crank shaft nut. What did you, or anyone else, use to remove that nut and reinstall it on the gear? That is a long reach for a 32mm / inch and a quarter nut. My normal deep sockets won't reach that far. I will look to see what I can find for sale, but I wonder if there is a special tool required for that nut. I could possibly make a special tool if required, but looking for input from you and others. Thanks in advance.

Michael

[Weegie]

When installing on my HiCam I used a 32mm extra deep 6 point impact socket. I didn't use the rattle gun on the nut but I preferred the 6 point impact as it would give the best fit as I knew it'd be on pretty tight

They aren't exactly cheap but can be found at less than an arm and a leg.

If you weren't on the wrong side of the pond to me I'd have popped mine in the post to you

Check E-Bay (or wherever) for Extra Deep 32mm socket, then measure up to be sure, but these sockets are available and do the job

Perhaps Phil has another solution

John

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

Phil, I only quoted you to catch your attention because you have done this and know what you are doing.

I am still hoping someone has the torque specs for the cam shaft nut and the crank shaft nut. But after taking it apart I am realizing I don't have a tool that can reach the crank shaft nut. What did you, or anyone else, use to remove that nut and reinstall it on the gear? That is a long reach for a 32mm / inch and a quarter nut. My normal deep sockets won't reach that far. I will look to see what I can find for sale, but I wonder if there is a special tool required for that nut. I could possibly make a special tool if required, but looking for input from you and others. Thanks in advance.

Michael

As weegie mentioned an extra deep 32mm impact socket. The torque figures are in the Shop manual. Crank Nut 110-120nm, alternator nut 80nm, cam gear 150nm. If you look in my "how to" for this task you will get some hints on holding tools etc.

https://www.abc.se/~rasmus/1100Sport-torque.html

Ciao