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Lucky Phil

V11 Daytona project

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Thorough refresh! What prompted this all?

No failure, just heavily worn top end really. I just wanted to do a full and proper rebuild. Its generally all or nothing for me in most things, or it used to be when I was more financial. I need to be a little more pragmatic these days. All this stuff was bought before I retired. I measured up the old mains yesterday and they are totally usable but I have new ones to fit.

The heads will have brand new lifters, rocker arms, guides, L/H cam, valve springs,valves and seals. The cylinders have been re nikasiled as well, new piston and rings and I have a new RAM single plate clutch assy. Its basically going to be a brand new engine.

 

Ciao 

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Däs pump: the best option. Especially if you're going to tune it. I use the V11 pump and went with a chain cam drive.

 

:thumbsup: Nice!

 

What kind of oilpump are you going to use?

German DAS/DHS? oil pump and Joe Caruso steel gears. Sent the rods back to Carrillo for a refresh as well

 

Ciao

 

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Däs pump: the best option. Especially if you're going to tune it. I use the V11 pump and went with a chain cam drive.

 

:thumbsup: Nice!

 

What kind of oilpump are you going to use?

 

German DAS/DHS? oil pump and Joe Caruso steel gears. Sent the rods back to Carrillo for a refresh as well

 

Ciao

 

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Yep good reliable setup. Joe Caruso is making oil pumps as well with the idler gear rotating on a fixed steel shaft like a Ducati pump. A better idea than all the Guzzi and even the aftermarket pumps with  the idler gear shaft rotating in the pump housing.

 

Ciao

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Just curious about after how many km the wear became obvious?

IPA time. Cheers tom

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Just curious about after how many km the wear became obvious?

IPA time. Cheers tom

I dont know what the mileage actually was which makes it hard to evaluate the longevity of components and where to focus on improving. I know what I was told it was by the seller that operates out of the states and we all would know but I cant seriously believe that figure after receiving the engine.The same as I cant seriously believe that it was a strong and healthy runner at the time it was parted out. To say I was disappointed at its condition when I received it would be an understatement. Wont be dealing with him again I can assure you. 

What I do know about these engines after 7 years of research and owning 3 pairs of heads off different engines is that the main issue with them is the top end. Valve guides wear badly as do lifters, rocker bushes and to some extent valve seats. Cams seem fine. The valve guide issue can be eliminated by using micropolished gas nitrided valves instead of the stainless versions. 

The bottom end has issues with the aluminium cam drive gear and oil pump drive gear and the oil pump running no bushing or bearing. The cam gears and oil pump gear in my engine were worn badly enough to replace but paradoxically the oil pump was fine. A little worn but usable.  

The heads on my engine had very bad guide wear (by that I mean 0.030" actual stem to guide clearance) and one head had 2 completely toasted exhaust valve seats, all four rocker arm bushes and pins were worn out and all the lifters were toast. Cams were ok.  If my engine had a genuine 100,000 miles on it I would be ok with that level of wear but if it had 40 or 50,000 miles then I would be horrified.

In general the std Daytona engine has a reputation as being a little fragile and wear prone and I would probably agree with that.

Once the cam and oil pump drive gears and the oil pump are addressed then the bottom end is bullet proof. New guides and the afore mentioned valves and the use of high quality oil and I think the top end issues are also largely addressed as well.

 

Ciao

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The guy who sold you the motor,,,, will not be ready for the nasty suprise coming  :angry2:  :not: .

Thanks for info.

Cheers tom.

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I have a question, when you plastigage the big ends do you reuse the conrod nuts? On some bikes this is a no-no. Of course those are the ones with the expensive nuts.

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I have a question, when you plastigage the big ends do you reuse the conrod nuts? On some bikes this is a no-no. Of course those are the ones with the expensive nuts.

No the Carrillo SPS bolts are reusable anyway as long as they haven't been over stretched.I also didn't torque them up to full spec, held it about 15% less than final torque.

If you use brand new bolts what you can do is measure the free length of the bolts then torque the bolts up to a little under full spec and then measure the bolt free length when you pull it apart again. If the bolt hasnt stretched then its good to reuse.

Going the last 10 or 15% of the torque isnt going the change the clearance reading unless you have rubbish rods that distort the cap. Once the rod cap faces have seated and applied the crush to the bearing then with a good rod the clearance figure wont change appreciably, the rest is just applying stretch to the bolt to allow it to take the running load and stop it undoing.

 

 

Ciao 

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What about the nuts, do you just re-use them?

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What about the nuts, do you just re-use them?

There are no nuts on Carrillo rods the bolts thread into the rods. There would also be no need to replace rod nuts after torquing as the nuts arent subject to any stretch. As a matter of fact if you use ARP head studs ARP suggest you torque the heads twice on installation to run in the threads on the nut and stud. This gives greater clamping consistency. The say their research shows torquing the studs around 8 times runs in the threads on the nut and stud to give the best results as far as torquing consistency goes.

 

Ciao

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Ok so I finally got all the engine parts painted. Just assembly to do.

 

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Here's the valve cutters I used. I can highly recommend these, they are expensive but do a brilliant job. Not shown is the simple T handle you use to rotate them. Apply some sharpie to the face you want to cut and away you go. Once you think its ready to lap turn off all the workshop lights and with the valve installed without the springs of course shine a bright light up the port from the header or inlet end and look for any slight sliver of light through where the valve seat and valve meet. Dont try and lap the valve until you see no light then the lapping is quick and easy.

 

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Here is my Kline kit I used on one of the heads. The tool on the far left is my home made guide trimmer for finishing off the sleeve down to the ends of the guide. The Kline one is silly money like $180 so I just machined up a basic one from some chrome molly. Seemed to work well. The next 4 items are all ball broaches used to size and lock the sleeve in place after its driven in with the spring equipped driver. The next basic looking tool is another home made thing from me to save a dollar, this time its to use with the guide reamer shown and is held in the valve seat to keep the reamer aligned with the guide via the valve seat. The last is another of my home made tools a modified impact gun tool for driving the ball broaches through.

My lathe work isnt up to Chucks standards I know. I'm pretty basic on the machines.

Oh and there's one for the hammer boys, my new dead blow hammer, I have a larger one the same. Bought them a few months ago at an auction cheap:) deal.

 

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Ciao 

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What a beautiful piece of work.. :notworthy:  :thumbsup:

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Here's one for the detail people. I was looking at the rear main today and noticed the cam journal feed slip in restrictor seemed to penetrate into the main bearing area to the point it would contact the crank journal. Hmmmm... if you check out the image you can see the small steel tube just peeking out enough to come into contact with the crank journal. Issue is the new rear main has been counterbored for the restrictor 2.5mm too deep compared to the old main.It probably wouldnt have caused a major drama and oil flow may have kept it off the crank journal but its also a much looser fit in the hole than the original and its better to take a few mm off it and keep it away from the journal.

There's a million detains just waiting to bite you on the ass with a job like this.

 

You can just see the edge of the restrictor peaking into the bearing bore at 12 oclock.

 

 

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Another angle

 

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The original main. The difference is obvious.

 

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Ciao

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