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Mostly just a gee-whiz question, but is Anyone running a lithium batt in the v11?

I’m not a big fan, but have one at home on it’s special tender, on the shelf, that I removed from another bike because I don’t like them for reliability (I know, some swear by them, but I grew weary of the issues with it).
The odyssey in the lemans is a bit tight in there, and the lithium would open up some nice working space to do a fuse block or something like that with more ease. I’d likely stick with the trusty odyssey, but if someone here has had good experience with the lipo in the v11, then I’d consider it again perhaps.
I walk into the shop and see that expensive thing staring at me, which makes me keep fishing for ways to use it.

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I know a handful of guys reporting very good results with LiFe cells/batteries, though others had them burning (one) or suddenly gone dead (also one). I don't know what they did to theirs or what quality/money they were, fact is that this cell type is great and a good alternative to a Hawker. The problem is, you cannot get them from Hawker, you're bound to what comes from China. I think it's called YMMV ...

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That sounds like my limited experience, at least the going dead thing.  Learned to let it “warm up” with key on for a cold morning, which took some getting used to.  But then sometimes it would just be low voltage, and need a bump in order to come to life and crank the motor, but then afterward would act normal again for a week or two.  Maybe the PO, who had installed it not long before I bought the bike, had killed it then revived it, doing some “memory” type damage.  I forget the brand, but it’s the more popular one I see around.

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Kiwi Roy, from your V11 Sport schematic ...

"Refer to Test Point Layout drawing for additional troubleshooting info"

Is there another drawing you refer to here, or would it be the schematic presented here? 

Having intermittent starting issue with an almost "new" 2600 miles 2002 LeMans and would like to troubleshoot using this schematic.  Assume it is also applicable to 2002 LM?

Thanks much for the easily readable/understandable drawing!

Tom in VA

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9 hours ago, Tom in Virginia said:

Kiwi Roy, from your V11 Sport schematic ...

"Refer to Test Point Layout drawing for additional troubleshooting info"

Is there another drawing you refer to here, or would it be the schematic presented here? 

Having intermittent starting issue with an almost "new" 2600 miles 2002 LeMans and would like to troubleshoot using this schematic.  Assume it is also applicable to 2002 LM?

Thanks much for the easily readable/understandable drawing!

Tom in VA

Tom, when I drew the Simple Wiring Diagram I was using my 2001 VII Sport, it had a direct feed to the Start Relay, unfortunately a couple of years later the Guzzi factory switched the Start Relay feed to the ignition switch causing untold grief for owners. You can see the difference here. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif  1999 era with a direct feed to the relay. My 2001 never had a problem with cranking but the regulator Voltage reference was the pits (through two sets of relay contacts).

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif  2004 with the start relay fed through the ignition switch, I would like to believe the factory are ignorant of the high current the starter solenoid draws but you have to wonder why they haven't spoken to the manufacturer about it some time in the last 50 years. Note this year has a direct connected Voltage regulator, that' should be a plus.

I assume you are having the dreaded click when you press the start button, that is caused by too much Voltage drop through the ignition switch, the starter solenoid is designed to pull at least 40 Amps while it is moving the gear into mesh, once engaged with the main contacts closed it drops to 10 Amps.

The Guzzi schematics never show the double coils in the solenoid, they are both about the same number of turn but one is of heavier gauge wire and draws 5 x the current, thats the one missing on the factory drawings. All Guzzi starters have this double coil even today.

You can probably improve things for a while by cleaning the ignition switch contacts but the real answer is to change the start relay feed from through the switch to direct but that involves changing the headlight relay wiring as well.

Another easy method is to add a new relay to the existing solenoid trigger circuit to boost the signal the trigger wire is removed from the solenoid and now only picks up the new relay coil, a fraction of an Amp, the new relay contact is fed from a new fuse direct from the battery, it can now provide as much current as the solenoid needs.

You will probably hear about the MPH solution, I don't think that will work with your bike, it would result in the headlight staying On.

I have never actually done one adding an extra relay but it has the advantage in that the original wiring remains the same.

The current of 40-50 amps will only last for about 20 milliseconds (as long as it takes to close the main contacts) then it will drop to 10 Amps while cranking. The current through the motor of course will be 150 - 200 Amps, no change there.

No need for a relay socket, just use spade lugs right on the relay pins.

Starter Relay.jpg

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On 9/28/2020 at 11:32 AM, Kiwi_Roy said:

Tom, when I drew the Simple Wiring Diagram I was using my 2001 VII Sport, it had a direct feed to the Start Relay, unfortunately a couple of years later the Guzzi factory switched the Start Relay feed to the ignition switch causing untold grief for owners. You can see the difference here. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif  1999 era with a direct feed to the relay. My 2001 never had a problem with cranking but the regulator Voltage reference was the pits (through two sets of relay contacts).

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif  2004 with the start relay fed through the ignition switch, I would like to believe the factory are ignorant of the high current the starter solenoid draws but you have to wonder why they haven't spoken to the manufacturer about it some time in the last 50 years. Note this year has a direct connected Voltage regulator, that' should be a plus.

I assume you are having the dreaded click when you press the start button, that is caused by too much Voltage drop through the ignition switch, the starter solenoid is designed to pull at least 40 Amps while it is moving the gear into mesh, once engaged with the main contacts closed it drops to 10 Amps.

The Guzzi schematics never show the double coils in the solenoid, they are both about the same number of turn but one is of heavier gauge wire and draws 5 x the current, thats the one missing on the factory drawings. All Guzzi starters have this double coil even today.

You can probably improve things for a while by cleaning the ignition switch contacts but the real answer is to change the start relay feed from through the switch to direct but that involves changing the headlight relay wiring as well.

Another easy method is to add a new relay to the existing solenoid trigger circuit to boost the signal the trigger wire is removed from the solenoid and now only picks up the new relay coil, a fraction of an Amp, the new relay contact is fed from a new fuse direct from the battery, it can now provide as much current as the solenoid needs.

You will probably hear about the MPH solution, I don't think that will work with your bike, it would result in the headlight staying On.

I have never actually done one adding an extra relay but it has the advantage in that the original wiring remains the same.

The current of 40-50 amps will only last for about 20 milliseconds (as long as it takes to close the main contacts) then it will drop to 10 Amps while cranking. The current through the motor of course will be 150 - 200 Amps, no change there.

No need for a relay socket, just use spade lugs right on the relay pins.

Starter Relay.jpg

I have had the '02 only about a month now, have ridden it twice. It has very little miles on it and in new condition, but that doesn't help 18 years worth of new oxidation/corrosion on electrical connections for sure.  First timeI rode it I think the battery was a bit low and had couple of issues.  Changed out all the relays to OMRONs, no issues after that.  2nd time I rode it about 100 miles, no issues at all.  Went to move it the back garage to the driveway a few days ago and when I pressed the starter button, started fine.  About an hour later I am ready to go for a ride and go to start it .... "crickets".  NOTHING. 

When I'd cycle the ignition switch and kill switch I could hear the fuel pump prime (?), but when pressing the starter button total silence.  Cycled misc. handlebar switches, also to include kickstand and manual cycling of that switch.  Cycled transmission into out of Neutral couple of times.  Rolled bike back in forth in gear, then into Neutral.  Investigated fuse box and found F4 (15 amp in the '02 and '03) fuse burned.  Replaced.  Still crickets.  Carried on a few more times with switches/ignition/neutral/kill and then all of a sudden "viola!" it started without hesitation. 

So as usual, I turned to the V11 forum and your writeup to try and determine some reasoning/pathway for my problem.  Thanks so much, wish I was more of an "sparky", apparently my brother and father got all those brains.  But being an old "paper pusher" from engineering years back, I'm gonna print your (excellent) response/suggestions to go with the electrical schematic you drew and file it in my MG binder.   Maybe this winter I can look at improving the starter wiring/circuitry.

 

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I have added a new oddesy battery, brand brand new starter, five newer relays courtesy of the great “Doc”

I have conversed previously with Roy and have to give him a hat tip for all his electrical and mechanical prowess. I’m definitely going to need a visual on what the actual wiring looks like on the bike. I’m very much interested in applying a new relay to my 2004. I am tired of the dreaded click. It used to be that my starter needed a little top with a hammer but now it’s a whole new ball of wax.

 

thank you for the wiring diagram Roy, anyone monitoring this topic have this added relay to their younger v11s? I love to see some actual pictures.

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Step 1 So I run the old trigger wire to terminal 85 on the relay. And then 86 goes to a good ground.

step 2 Run a new lead from terminal 87 on the new relay to the spade connecter on the starter motor solenoid.

step 3 and it’s just confusion, terminal 30 on the new relay (14-16 gauge wire)  goes to the...........(I’m confused by the image, if it is either the positive terminal on the battery or the large terminal post on the starter that the new lead goes to).

 

thanks!

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It really doesn't matter which you run to, the battery positive or the live terminal on the starter solenoid, the battery post usually has too many on already and it depends on where you mount the relay, close to the battery or close to the starter

Not the one that connects to the starter motor, the one that connects to the battery.

 

Here are the drawing files, but no perving at Carl's girlfriend mind you. Scroll down without looking!

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html

 

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21 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

Here are the drawing files, but no perving at Carl's girlfriend mind you. Scroll down without looking!

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html

I'm looking for an editable source file.  The spine drawings from 1999 and 2004 don't exactly match my 2002.  I've asked Carl if he has source.

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Lord Tundering Jesus, my bike now starts like a normal persons bike. I really can’t beleive it. 
 

Thanks Doc, thank you Roy, very well done! The only thing next for my bike to do is burn to the ground but I double checked and my bike is properly grounded at the back of the gearbox and not the rear seat lock! 

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