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Purloined

Bad ignition module? Bike won't start.

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My 2000 V11 stopped running at the beginning of the winter and I wondered if anyone might offer an opinion. 

There have been times when it would just quit at idle, when fully warmed up and I was riding it. Don't know if this is related to the current problem or not. It became erratic at some point, stuttering on throttle, then it would be fine. Quickly got worse to the point where it was difficult to restart. Step three: it would idle, but if I gave it any throttle it would start to stumble, and this behavior was abrupt, i.e. it was not as though I could gently induce the rpms higher, it would just cut out when I opened the throttle. Step four: would not start at all. The plugs are sparking (plugs and wires and air filter are new.) I don't smell fuel in the exhaust at all. 

I was describing this to an auto mechanic friend who's not familiar with the the bike, but to him the symptoms were similar to a bad ignition module in automobiles. I know this is a pretty sketchy description, but the on/off nature sounds to me like a failure of a gizmo about which I know nothing.  

And please forgive me for the pain anyone experiences from eye-rolling after reading this. 

Any advice is appreciated

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My guess, and it is only a guess, is the crankshaft sensor. Maybe gapped a little too wide? In that scenario, it will run at idle, but won't take throttle. :huh2:

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30 minutes ago, Chuck said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is the crankshaft sensor. Maybe gapped a little too wide? In that scenario, it will run at idle, but won't take throttle. :huh2:

Yes chuck or its just failing period. Buy yourself a cheap Chinese copy one for like $15US and try that. If its not you havent spent the $170US they seem to want for the OEM. OEM ones are a little hard to come by these days and you see a lot of aftermarked retailers selling the Chinese ones so they cant be all that bad as they are used on a lot of older automotive stuff. Thats my theory anyway having bought one to use in the Daytona engine. Havent got it running yet so I cant comment on the performance.   

Ciao

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1 hour ago, Purloined said:

 . . .  sounds to me like a failure of a gizmo  . . .
 

"Gizmo failure" . . . I think you nailed it, bud . . .

 

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A cohort of brains cells on a Saturday night are on holiday, they send me greetings from the festive, secret location where they're on hiatus; it's a disappointing abrogation of responsibility. And they will be scolded on their return. But meanwhile, I'm relegated to fractional cognitive skills in their absence.   

Are there two components which might be culprits? I see a device on the left side of the engine block, a sending unit scrutinizing the position of the crankshaft from what I've read. I assume in dialog with the spark and injection services. The symptoms of a failed unit which are described seem consistent with my bike's malady.  But a bad relay also potentially malfunctioning? Or did I misunderstand?

This place is a damned encyclopedia; with way better humor. Pretty good for a Saturday night's entertainment. The brain cells will be pouting about all they missed when they return. As far as I'm concerned, they can be pouty from inside the doghouse where they'll be quarantined until they apologize for their jail break. There are rules in this funhouse.  

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A 2000 V11 sport does not have a crank sensor, it does have a camshaft sensor, top of block just above where the timing chain runs. 
It has a 90* bend in the wire right off the sensor itself, that can fail when engine gets hot.

have you checked the valve lash?

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No start . What is the bike not doing ? Fuel pump , does it come on when you turn ign. switch on ? Yes = proceed No = find out why not . check for proper V and relay operation. 

 # 1 the "what's it called " sensor . Is it producing a signal during cranking ? 

# 2 is there injector pulse during cranking ?

# 3 is there spark during cranking ?  

Do all tests w/plugs out and spark plug leads grounded .

# 1 you will need a noid light , DVOM and know how to use them . Take your meter and check continuity of the wiring and sensor .Hmmmm . 3-5k ohms I think (guessin') should be good . Check for a signal during cranking at the unplugged connection of the "what's it called" sensor . VERIFY you are doing this correctly . Signal = good sensor . No signal = replace sensor and index for correct air gap . THIS sensor has to work before anything works .

# 2 Use a noid light to verify both connectors are producing injector pulses . Pulse = the injectors are being triggered . No pulse = injectors are not being triggered . Keep on testin' ! Make sure what all isn't working before deciding what isn't working .

 # 3 spark at both spark plug wires . Spark=  look at spark plugs , fuel quality and pressure . No spark = the injectors / coils are triggered from the crank sensor .  

 Do not throw parts or jump around diagnosing " no-start " conditions . 

 

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I had previously determined that the plugs were firing. I adjusted the valves a few hundred miles before this problem had begun. 

The fuel pump comes on as it should when I switch on the ignition. 

To be clear, the pic is the sensor in question? Fotoguzzi says it is a camshaft sensor, not a crank (assume 'crank' refers to crankshaft) sensor, which would make sense given its location. Testing for signal would involve removing it from the engine and accessing electrical signal from where it fastens to the block? Or the signal would be tested upstream?

In the case of this sensor: 'air gap'? Does it need adjustment when installed as opposed to being fastened in its socket? 

I may have to defer to someone more versed in this diagnosis. It is a 550 pound dead weight at this point and will be difficult to transport the hour and a half to Hamlin's in Bethel. It would be cool if I could blunder onto the source of the problem without resorting to the age-old trick of  tossing a bowl of pesto&pasta into the back of the van for a trip to the doctor's office and hoping if falls for it

 

Thanks all. .

V11 sensor.JPG

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Buddy , the sensor gets it's signal from the ring on the c/shaft . Decide for yourself . I have never checked to see how many notches there are to signal / when to fire . I would suspect this is a wasted spark system where it fires every crankshaft revolution . 

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30 minutes ago, Purloined said:

I had previously determined that the plugs were firing. I adjusted the valves a few hundred miles before this problem had begun. 

The fuel pump comes on as it should when I switch on the ignition. 

To be clear, the pic is the sensor in question? Fotoguzzi says it is a camshaft sensor, not a crank (assume 'crank' refers to crankshaft) sensor, which would make sense given its location. Testing for signal would involve removing it from the engine and accessing electrical signal from where it fastens to the block? Or the signal would be tested upstream?

In the case of this sensor: 'air gap'? Does it need adjustment when installed as opposed to being fastened in its socket? 

I may have to defer to someone more versed in this diagnosis. It is a 550 pound dead weight at this point and will be difficult to transport the hour and a half to Hamlin's in Bethel. It would be cool if I could blunder onto the source of the problem without resorting to the age-old trick of  tossing a bowl of pesto&pasta into the back of the van for a trip to the doctor's office and hoping if falls for it

 

Thanks all. .

V11 sensor.JPG

Hmmmm, just sayin. Always good to recheck when you have an issue.

Crank sensor that uses the cam drive as its reference. It MAY need adjustment depending on the difference between the exact dimensions of the original and the new but its always good to check the gap when replacing anyway. 

Ciao

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I would certainly be inclined to address the historically most common issues that make a V11 act (up) like this. Sure, could be the timing sensor. It's just that has proven to be an exceedingly uncommon failure.

Most common? Failed relays, especially Position #1 (and #2) on the early V11. But also Position#5. Obtain a full set of the referenced 5-pin OMRON High Current Relays and seat them in all positions with a spritz of magic on the contacts (Caig DeOxit®)

Next most common, Ignition Switch. It's a little fiddly to get apart, but the soldered wiring can be inspected/repaired and the contacts inside cleaned and lubificated (Caig or Vaseline®)

I realize that is worth precisely what you just paid for it . . . :2c:

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Buddy , the sensor gets it's signal from the ring on the c/shaft . Decide for yourself . I have never checked to see how many notches there are to signal / when to fire . I would suspect this is a wasted spark system where it fires every crankshaft revolution .  

Well , I will have to back up . It looks like the sensor is getting it's signal from the cam .

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What about the two bullet connectors under the tank along the left hand side of the spine?

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Oy. 

Thanks for all the ink spilled here on my behalf. 

I swapped relays and the bike started without protest. And the weather here in New Haven is sufficiently obliging at the beginning of February (thank you ExxonMobil) that I managed to take it for a ride around town dressed in a long sleeve tee shirt. 

This forum has helped shepherd me through numerous problems and I'm grateful for the time and interest on everyone's part. 

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That dang #5 relay.  Why can't we have decent plugs and connectors?  

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