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2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

No, actually we haven't all done it. In fact, very few of us have done it. That said, if it wasn't so tragic it would have been hysterical. What a bonehead move by Aleix. That is worse than crashing on the cool down or warm up lap.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt, because the Catalunya circuit has a tower showing the number of laps remaining.

He saw 0, and thought "complete"; zero in this case means it is the last lap.

I know that in the USA, on oval race tracks, you have these towers for lap count down. Is there a lap 0? or does Lap 1 means next finish line is the end?

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1 hour ago, PJPR01 said:

Considering the injuries caused to others by Taka's mistakes, I think he should be penalized for sure.  Rins was 100% correct that Race Direction is basically absent in their decision making process and seems to be incapable of making a decision here.

Race direction's rationale was they looked at the telemetry, and Takagami started to brake at the same time the others did. They did not give him a penalty because he had not attempted to brake too late.

Rins has a broken wrist.

Rins has a point when he says that stewards are possibly out of touch with the reality of the sport today. Normally, you try to keep up by continuous learning, but I doubt any of the stewards has tried one of the recent MotoGP, to even get an idea of what it is.

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Interesting observations from race direction, so if he didn't break too late, then he's just a bad rider and the braking was not a contributing factor...so wouldn't that point to him still being responsible for causing the accident...if not, then what would they consider to be the reason...certainly there was no oil on the track to point to.

At this point, I think the other riders are leery of Taka given his track record (no pun intended),...so he'll become somewhat ostracized until his riding improves and he stops causing "racing incidents".  :)

Found this after I posted above:

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/nakagami-escapes-catalan-gp-turn-1-crash-without-serious-injury/10317625/

Seems to be a universal view that Taka should have been penalized...even he admitted it was his fault.

 

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I try to stay away from opining on experts so far above my level, but I couldn't help but review the video a number of times. 

Taka had things well under control on the brakes, looked like he was thinking of taking a bit wider line when another rider came in from his left, having slowed more than Taka could accomodate. Had this other rider not come into his line, I don't think the crash would have happened. I'm with the race refs, just a racing incident and no fault of Taka's. 

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2 hours ago, PJPR01 said:

Interesting observations from race direction, so if he didn't break too late, then he's just a bad rider and the braking was not a contributing factor...so wouldn't that point to him still being responsible for causing the accident...if not, then what would they consider to be the reason...certainly there was no oil on the track to point to.

At this point, I think the other riders are leery of Taka given his track record (no pun intended),...so he'll become somewhat ostracized until his riding improves and he stops causing "racing incidents".  :)

Found this after I posted above:

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/nakagami-escapes-catalan-gp-turn-1-crash-without-serious-injury/10317625/

Seems to be a universal view that Taka should have been penalized...even he admitted it was his fault.

 

Racing incident or first corner bunching as Speedway often consider it and no rider excluded. I thought Peccos response was interesting considering he took out Jorge Martin in a bone headed up the inside and lose it on the brakes 2 rider incident at Qatar earlier in the year. Riders have very short memories. I thought Nakagami just made a small mistake on the brakes into the first corner not a stupid move. The other thing of note was naka got a really really good launch and drive off the start and when he went down wasn't from the areal shot stull trying desperately to get it stopped. He had got 98% of his braking done fine and just lost the front trail braking the last %2, certainly not a reckless out of control lunge. There's a massive amount going on into the first turn on the opening lap, cold tires, no .aero, cold brakes, massive compressing of the field and riders trying to improve positions. You have to expect the odd mistake here sometimes. Bagnia said in the interview " you can't overtake 12 riders into the first corner" Have a look at the replay and check out Mir firing it up the inside into turn 1 after the start. Started in 19th position and came out of turn 1 in 5th, so made 14 places into the first corner. Riders, some aren't paid because they're thinkers thats for sure.   

Alex Rins was winging like a 3 year old about an incident with Naka in the previous race and I watched it a dozen times and Naka did zero wrong. He ran his bike out onto the paint and used all the track and held his trajectory and Rins tried to go up the inside on the exit and lost it. Riders under pressure looking for excuses why they crashed. 

Ciao

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I think people are hiding behind semantics here...calling it a racing incident rather than a mistake and therefore assigning appropriately fault and responsibility.  You can't keep having "racing incidents" and be the common denominator all the time and simultaneously say you are not at fault.  That's just fantasy.

At the end of the day, a large group of riders are now going to be extremely cautious around Taka and he's under extra scrutiny not to screw up, or he might screw up again because of the extra scrutiny.  Either way, he's contributing to or directly responsible for crashes...In the article, Taka even admits it was his fault...

Let's see how the next race evolves...does Taka even have a team next year to ride with?  I haven't seen a lot of news around other teams dying to have him be there #1 or #2 or #3 rider yet.

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2 minutes ago, PJPR01 said:

I think people are hiding behind semantics here...calling it a racing incident rather than a mistake and therefore assigning appropriately fault and responsibility.  You can't keep having "racing incidents" and be the common denominator all the time and simultaneously say you are not at fault.  That's just fantasy.

At the end of the day, a large group of riders are now going to be extremely cautious around Taka and he's under extra scrutiny not to screw up, or he might screw up again because of the extra scrutiny.  Either way, he's contributing to or directly responsible for crashes...In the article, Taka even admits it was his fault...

Let's see how the next race evolves...does Taka even have a team next year to ride with?  I haven't seen a lot of news around other teams dying to have him be there #1 or #2 or #3 rider yet.

A "racing incident" doesn't mean nobody made an error it means the error wasn't stupid or reckless and other factors contributed to the outcome. I watch a ton of racing ( WSB, Au champs, Motoamerica, Motogp, all the irish racing, speedway and much more) and have been involved over many years and I've never had the thought that Nakagami is a dangerous or risky rider. Back in the 90's at the Phillip Island round of WSB I was talking to a well known top WSB rider at the time in the pits after race 1 and he was spitting chips about Nori Haga's riding with whom he had been having a big battle. I went and looked at it afterwards thinking I'd missed something but nope just hard racing no quarter given or taken. Rider phycology has always a been a big part of their success, it just hasn't been understood until quite recently by most. Often there's more gains to be had in the head than the machine.

Phil    

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5 hours ago, PJPR01 said:

Interesting observations from race direction, so if he didn't break too late, then he's just a bad rider and the braking was not a contributing factor...so wouldn't that point to him still being responsible for causing the accident...if not, then what would they consider to be the reason...certainly there was no oil on the track to point to.

At this point, I think the other riders are leery of Taka given his track record (no pun intended),...so he'll become somewhat ostracized until his riding improves and he stops causing "racing incidents".  :)

Found this after I posted above:

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/nakagami-escapes-catalan-gp-turn-1-crash-without-serious-injury/10317625/

Seems to be a universal view that Taka should have been penalized...even he admitted it was his fault.

 

Zarco saw him zip past, and was a witness of the crash. Fabio and Aleix were already ahead.

Zarco said there was absolutely no way he would have made the turn. He was too fast. Jorge Martin felt the same.

If you remember, this track has seen a lot of incidents on departure. The one I remember is Sete Gibernau' strike...

 

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3 hours ago, p6x said:

Zarco saw him zip past, and was a witness of the crash. Fabio and Aleix were already ahead.

Zarco said there was absolutely no way he would have made the turn. He was too fast. Jorge Martin felt the same.

If you remember, this track has seen a lot of incidents on departure. The one I remember is Sete Gibernau' strike...

 

Johann Zarco, you mean the Johann Zarco that caused the biggest crash in MotoGP history at the Red Bull Ring a few years ago and thought he hadn't done anything wrong? That Johann Zarco, lol. I have a ton of respect for these guys that go out and lay it all on the line but It's extremely rare for me to take any view of a racing incident they have too seriously, esp if they have been involved. "Clearly Naka was never going to make that corner because if he was it means he's out braked me and I'm the best on the brakes in motoGP". That folks is how 99% of circuit riders brains work, lol.   

Phil

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On 6/7/2022 at 10:51 AM, Pressureangle said:

I've done it. (only once when I was so far ahead I wasn't challenged) I've also crashed on the warm-up lap. Never crashed on cool down, though. 

I have never stopped racing before the end of the race, thinking it was over. But I have crashed on a warmup lap, once. I was surprised by someone else and had to avoid them, running off the track at speed.

I have a friend who crashed on the cooldown lap, but in his defense he didn't see the checkered flag (he was lapped right before the line and never got the white flag). He thought he was still racing and was trying to catch the guy in front of him.

I get that mistakes happen, but at that level that mistake shouldn't happen. These guys are pro's, and pro's should not make rookie mistakes.

As to Taka, I am not sure what he did was so wrong. I get that people who were affected by what he did are pissed, but it seemed like an honest mistake to me. I don't see a pattern of mistakes, or a rider who rides with a disregard for the safety of others. There are riders who have a much more extensive history of knocking other riders down. To penalize Taka for that while turning a blind eye to others would seem wrong. You either take action at everyone who knocks other riders down or you only take action when it is blatant. And that was not blatant.

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It's official: Jack Miller goes to KTM Factory Team, to replace Oliveira.

Pundits expect Oliveira to move to Ducati Gresini in replacement of Bastianini.

Miller stayed 5 years in Ducati; 16 podiums and two victories. I think KTM needs Jack Miller's experience on the Ducati to help to confirm and validate some of the efforts. This 2022 season does not look as promising as Pit Beirer would like it to be.

 

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1 hour ago, p6x said:

It's official: Jack Miller goes to KTM Factory Team, to replace Oliveira.

Pundits expect Oliveira to move to Ducati Gresini in replacement of Bastianini.

Miller stayed 5 years in Ducati; 16 podiums and two victories. I think KTM needs Jack Miller's experience on the Ducati to help to confirm and validate some of the efforts. This 2022 season does not look as promising as Pit Beirer would like it to be.

 

I feel this is a good move for KTM. Miller is probably the best rider KTM has yet signed to ride their bike. Not only will his experience be useful but Jack is fast. There will likely be a learning curve, as the KTM is not like the other bikes. But hopefully Miller can adapt to it.

I would have preferred Miller to go to Aprilia, but KTM could use the help as well.

KTM seems to get screwed every time Michelin change tire specs. They seem more sensitive to that than the others, although Honda also got screwed on the most recent changes to the "spec" tires. Now I hear Michelin is only going to bring two compound / construction tires to races. Of course, the teams get no say in which two. Boy, that is going to screw someone.

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4 hours ago, p6x said:

It's official: Jack Miller goes to KTM Factory Team, to replace Oliveira.

Pundits expect Oliveira to move to Ducati Gresini in replacement of Bastianini.

Miller stayed 5 years in Ducati; 16 podiums and two victories. I think KTM needs Jack Miller's experience on the Ducati to help to confirm and validate some of the efforts. This 2022 season does not look as promising as Pit Beirer would like it to be.

 

I suspect the KTM will be the end of Millers Career in MotoGP. KTM has 2 things going against it, a tubular frame and it's the only MotoGP bike using WP suspension. I don't think the tube frame is necessarily a limiting factor but when your bike is obviously lacking in performance then reducing the variables is the smart way of at the very least of gaining some comparative data with whats on every other winning bike. Of course politics plays a part and seeing KTM owns WP it's never going to happen but the smart move would be to use the Ohlins on the Tech3 bikes to see what it's like. 

When you're looking for answers sometimes it's best to be a follower for a while and use whats obviously winning for at the very least an objective alternative data. The only issue with a steel tube frame is consistency. Casy Stoner commented years ago when Ducati went to the carbon box frame that the only thing wrong with the trellis frame was that every individual one felt completely different to the other. So his #1 bike flexed totally different from his #2 bike and a replacement frame different to both. He postulated that with so many individual welded joints in a trellis that that may be the issue. Nobody before or since has had Stoners "feel" for a motorcycle chassis.   

Phil

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2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

I feel this is a good move for KTM. Miller is probably the best rider KTM has yet signed to ride their bike. Not only will his experience be useful but Jack is fast. There will likely be a learning curve, as the KTM is not like the other bikes. But hopefully Miller can adapt to it.

I would have preferred Miller to go to Aprilia, but KTM could use the help as well.

KTM seems to get screwed every time Michelin change tire specs. They seem more sensitive to that than the others, although Honda also got screwed on the most recent changes to the "spec" tires. Now I hear Michelin is only going to bring two compound / construction tires to races. Of course, the teams get no say in which two. Boy, that is going to screw someone.

Note that the two compounds choice versus three is a collegial approved measure. On most grand-prix, the choices gravitate around two anyways. This was not decided unilaterally by Michelin although they seem to be blamed a lot for the performance discrepancies from one bike to the other. The difference between the various M1 is mind boggling. Quartararo seems to be the only one able to get it to perform. 

I would have also liked Jack Miller to go to Aprilia, but there weren't any factory bike available. Such as Oliveira who turned down the offer to reintegrate Tech3 to stay on KTM, he felt it was a demotion. Difficult to anticipate how Jack will feel on the KTM. It is however good that he gets another two years contract on a factory bike.

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29 minutes ago, p6x said:

Note that the two compounds choice versus three is a collegial approved measure. On most grand-prix, the choices gravitate around two anyways. This was not decided unilaterally by Michelin although they seem to be blamed a lot for the performance discrepancies from one bike to the other. The difference between the various M1 is mind boggling. Quartararo seems to be the only one able to get it to perform. 

I would have also liked Jack Miller to go to Aprilia, but there weren't any factory bike available. Such as Oliveira who turned down the offer to reintegrate Tech3 to stay on KTM, he felt it was a demotion. Difficult to anticipate how Jack will feel on the KTM. It is however good that he gets another two years contract on a factory bike.

This is where the control tyre situation doesn't work. Far faster, cheaper for the factories and easier to tailor make tyres for each bike than re design frames, swingarm, triple clamps and forks for each new iteration of tyre construction. All that chassis development out the window when Michelin change tyre constructions. Like tossing the deck of cards into the air and see who wins and loses in the "do they work with my chassis" game.

Yamaha's problem is they like all the factories get sucked into the "hiring an old has been rider" thinking there is value in their experience. In fact there is almost zero value in old riders who are set in their ways and want the whole bike designed around their style to make up for their degenerated competitiveness. They still fall for it though. Franki Morbidelli who I like very much as a person has hit the wall a lot of rider hit after a big, big injury, a phycological one that many never recover from. Always the acid test of a top rider, how well they deal mentally with a big injury. Rossi's record was never the same after he broke his leg. 

Rookies just ride what they got and accept the current situation. The skill isn't cutting fast lap times on these bikes these days, even rookies can do that, it's learning to race them and then dealing with the pressure of being a "factory" rider if you ever get there.

Phil  

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