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ZDDP levels in motor oil


p6x
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I am working on oil at present.

This is so unfortunate that excepted for LIQUI MOLLY, none of the oil manufacturers are answering my emails.

I found some websites with similar interests and motorbikes than ours. Understand this as: "older motorcycles, 4 strokes, ranging from one to six cylinders, air cooled.

So far, I have been able to recouped some information; 

1) Multigrade oil is admissible. Fully synthetic oils are best.

2) Grade range should be selected according to the specific temperature conditions your motorcycle is mostly exposed to.

The biggest challenge, is to find out about the additives list and amount. The so-called ppm of ZDDP (Zinc) and Phosphorus which our V11 require.

My current quest is to clarify which oils if any, still contain those elements. From what I understand the oil components that we had in all oils for older motorcycles may no longer be present in those conceived for modern motorcycles. This is the information I have been looking for.

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We're going a bit Off Topic from relays here, would it not be a better idea if you started a separate thread.

[docc edit: Done! Thanks for the suggestion! :thumbsup: ]

Having a hot Hi Cam I've did a little delving into oils both viscosity grades and additives.

The 2 I found that claim to have higher ZDDP were Pentrite and Royal Purple, both Australian oil manufacturers, I've no clue why. Currently I'm running the HiCam on 10/60 Full Synth Penrite. I've yet to get any meaningful mileage to evaluate it though.

I've seen people stating Guzzi brought out a technical that the previously recommended 20/50 should go to 10/60, but on my Sporti I find that the bike runs fine on 15/50 (so a 20/50 would likewise be Ok).

Purely anectodal, but I think the 2 V/V bikes don't require 10/60, they hold pressure fine on 20/50. The 4V/V bikes like the HiCam may benefit from 10/60 if they run hot.

That's for the ambients in the UK, if you ride in high ambients then a 10/60 may be worthwhile.

What little data I've gathered is from having a sump oil temp dipstick and a pressure gauge.

You're quite correct though air cooled bikes will be more susceptable to changes in ambients, in the Ducati manual for my 1098 (a watercooled engine) it referenced a range of acceptable viscosity grades that could be used dependent on the ambient range.

No clue if that helps or not.

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I went into the local shop last week and they went on their system and said the v11 was recommended a full synth 0w30.  

Till now I’d been using the semi 20w50 v-twin putoline.

I’m thinking of emailing opie oils to ask whether they have a suggestion.

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21 hours ago, Weegie said:

We're going a bit Off Topic from relays here, would it not be a better idea if you started a separate thread.

Having a hot Hi Cam I've did a little delving into oils both viscosity grades and additives.

The 2 I found that claim to have higher ZDDP were Pentrite and Royal Purple, both Australian oil manufacturers, I've no clue why. Currently I'm running the HiCam on 10/60 Full Synth Penrite. I've yet to get any meaningful mileage to evaluate it though.

I've seen people stating Guzzi brought out a technical that the previously recommended 20/50 should go to 10/60, but on my Sporti I find that the bike runs fine on 15/50 (so a 20/50 would likewise be Ok).

Purely anectodal, but I think the 2 V/V bikes don't require 10/60, they hold pressure fine on 20/50. The 4V/V bikes like the HiCam may benefit from 10/60 if they run hot.

That's for the ambients in the UK, if you ride in high ambients then a 10/60 may be worthwhile.

What little data I've gathered is from having a sump oil temp dipstick and a pressure gauge.

You're quite correct though air cooled bikes will be more susceptable to changes in ambients, in the Ducati manual for my 1098 (a watercooled engine) it referenced a range of acceptable viscosity grades that could be used dependent on the ambient range.

No clue if that helps or not.

The SAE J300 tables help define a motor oil selection according to your own environmental conditions. (refer to the table below)

It is not all about ZDDP though. There is another parameter we should not ignore: HTHS which stands for High Temperature High Shear rate viscosity.

SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) classify if four categories the oil viscosity:

1) HTHS that controls oil film thickness in bearings

2) LTHS that relates to engine startability (LT= Low Temperature)

3) LTLS that relates to oil pumpability (LS=Low Shear rate)

4) HS viscometric effect that influence fuel economy

Because in Texas we seldom see temperatures below zero degree Celcius, I could use a multigrade oil starting with 25W; I currently use 15W. Of course, if I go to Alaska and leave my bike outside, I would need to do an oil change.

The other side of the grade scale is more challenging to comprehend in relation to our "ancient" V11 technology. In the user's manual Moto Guzzi recommended 40, so we could safely assume that it is the lowest grade choice.

If you check the manufacturers' websites, some provide a motorcycle oil selector. For those who have Moto Guzzi V11s, 5W40 is often suggested.

But it is the easy part in our never ending quest for the best oil in our V11s.

Oil manufacturers in their vast majority only publish the SAE results.

SAE Viscosity Grade Table

 

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18 hours ago, docc said:

Indeed.

What we don't know, what is the minimum ppm we should have. From what I understand, more is not synonym of better. This is the a big dilemma. As I have read, consumers are not really interested in what oil is used in their vehicles. There is some common interest in vintage vehicles owners though.

Kudos to RedLine for indicating levels of Zinc and Phosphorus. This is what I am trying to find from those who don't specify whether these are included or not.

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18 hours ago, stewgnu said:

I went into the local shop last week and they went on their system and said the v11 was recommended a full synth 0w30.  

Till now I’d been using the semi 20w50 v-twin putoline.

I’m thinking of emailing opie oils to ask whether they have a suggestion.

I know UK can be cold, but I would not think you need 0W -35 degrees Celcius would be exceptional.

If I check the Castrol UK website, they recommend the usual 5W40 which is typical of all the sites I checked. In their spec sheet, they only state the SAE parameters.

Here's the link: https://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/home/car-engine-oil-and-fluids/motor-oil-and-fluids-finder.html?customerType=retail&category=motorcycles-mopeds-atv-utv&make=moto-guzzi&model=v-series-1977-&engineType=v-11-1998-2006&ref=954f0940624f1d950b784a0852e063d5&component=engine

But if you want to feel safe, an easy choice is Mobil 1 V Twin 20W50; do you have to crank start your engine below -15 degC at any time?

Mobil 1 publishes their level of Zinc and Phosphorus for that oil:

Mobil 1 zinc and phosphorus level

 

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I've never looked into the various viscosities in that amount of detail. As I only use the bikes in Spring/Summer/Autumn they never see an ambient below 10C (50F) so the low temp viscosities are academic and don't concern me

The manual I have for the V11 states 20W/50, as do all the Guzzis of that era, I don't know if that changed in later V11 models.

The only reason I'd run a 10W or below would to reduce wear on start up as it would circulate faster. However that needs to be balanced with warm up to operating temp and/or running temp, as some engines, dependent on ambient and other factors, may not reach 100C oil temp

I came across a formula for interpolation of viscosites and it's far from perfect as it doesn't work so well with synthetics and multigrades, but it's better than nothing. Using it revealed some interesting results. When I changed from 15/50 to 10/60 around 20C the 10/60 is considerably more viscous than the 15/50 because of the higher viscosity index. So when the bike is cold on the 10/60 the oil is more viscous

One more thing on viscosity is not all manufacturers who have the same grades are equal, the Motul synthetic I was using prior to moving to Penrite was a bit thinner for the same quoted grade.

If I was changing grade I'd at least put on a temporary gauge to get some idea of what's happening to the oil pressure. From my limited experience you don't need to run the engine hard to get a clue, as above 3k RPM there is little change in pressure.

The Sporti PRV opens at 60psi and when I'm out in ambients between 12-25C the pressure at above 2k is always around there.

With Zinc the Mobil levels are high, the Penrite is 0.124% by mass I'm assuming that's 1240 PPM & Phosphorus 1100 PPM . There was a thread on here where somebody called Motul to check (I think it was 300V but unsure) and it was considerably lower

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19 minutes ago, Weegie said:

With Zinc the Mobil levels are high, the Penrite is 0.124% by mass I'm assuming that's 1240 PPM & Phosphorus 1100 PPM . There was a thread on here where somebody called Motul to check (I think it was 300V but unsure) and it was considerably lower

I have read an article from AMSOIL that states too much ZDDP is not "better"; quite the contrary in fact, since they state it can damage your engine.

Here below is an excerpt from the recommended fluids for the V11 Le Mans.

As you can see, it is in line with whatever Oil manufacturers recommend 5W-40. But as with everything else, this recommendation is frozen in time.

Interestingly, AGIP is now ENI, and they have a new oil line using the i-Ride prefix. They no longer offer Agip Racing; the only place you find racing is in oil specifically conceived for Aprilia: i-Ride Aprilia Racing in SAE grades: 10W60 and 5W40. Those are indicated as "racing" lubricants.

For us V11 owners, I think the i-Ride 20W50 is what they would recommend. As you would expect, they only show the usual SAE parameters.

Recommended Oil V11 Le Mans

 

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Workshop Manual V11 Sport, is the one I grabbed from the Piaggo website I think calling for 20/50

The 5/40 recommendation surprises me, but I'm just a average bodger who knows little about such esoterics

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1 hour ago, Weegie said:

Workshop Manual V11 Sport, is the one I grabbed from the Piaggo website I think calling for 20/50

The 5/40 recommendation surprises me, but I'm just a average bodger who knows little about such esoterics

Unless one of us worked for a lubricant manufacturer, we all are in the same camp of those who never really cared much. As long as it is SAE, it should work. It is a pity that SAE does not define ZDDP and ZDTP and Phosphorus requirements.

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  • docc changed the title to ZDDP levels in motor oil
4 hours ago, p6x said:

I have read an article from AMSOIL that states too much ZDDP is not "better"; quite the contrary in fact, since they state it can damage your engine.

 

In what way would the engine be damaged?

Somehow, my brain has retained that 1200 ppm ZDDP is desirable for the V11, but I have no reference where that idea came from. It seems the RedLine 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil I have been using is 2200. Too much of a good thing? How would one assess this?

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52 minutes ago, docc said:

In what way would the engine be damaged?

Somehow, my brain has retained that 1200 ppm ZDDP is desirable for the V11, but I have no reference where that idea came from. It seems the RedLine 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil I have been using is 2200. Too much of a good thing? How would one assess this?

http://oilproz.weebly.com/news/the-debate-over-reduced-zddp-and-wear-protection

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12 minutes ago, p6x said:

Ah, yes, to wit (and I paraphrase):

> Phosphorous is harmful to catalytic converters. Not a V11 issue.

> High performance, flat-tappet motors should still use high ZDDP oil. [Yes, I would rate the V11 as "high performance" considering that it is an end point development of the V700 designed in the 1960s.]

And I quote, " The camshaft and lifters are responsiblefor triggering the precisely tuned movements of the valvetrain.

Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation
."

"Too much" ZDDP does not appear to be an issue for the V11 motor. No mention of engine damage that I can see in the article, only catalytic converter damage.

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