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Unpacking the cans... don't bother-

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Guest trispeed

this guy has raised the compression ratio a half point, remember. That is not a small change; together with the exhaust mods have netted 3 HP. Where is this huge backpressure problem with the stock pipes? The stock ones sound nice and give a smooth powerband; sounds like a lot of effort for very little gain.

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this guy has raised the compression ratio a half point, remember. That is not a small change;  together with the exhaust mods have netted 3 HP. Where is this huge backpressure problem with the stock pipes? The stock ones sound nice and give a smooth powerband; sounds like a lot of effort for very little gain.

66551[/snapback]

Oh, I missed that fact. :doh:

So, is the following correct on the dyno graph?

the pink line is with high compression pistons and modified exhaust,

the blue line is with high compression pistons and un-modifed exhaust,

the green line is with OEM pistons and un-modified exhaust.

:huh2:

I also just noticed he is bypassing a catylitc convertor, too.

I probably would not get the same benefits...

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Hello

 

the green line is all stock

 

the blue line is with the raised compression (stock pistons, 0,5 mm milled from the head gasket surface, 0,45 mm removed from the bottom of the cylinder to bring the pistons completely up in the bore), slightly changed cam timing (approx 3° advanced) and after a crankshaft balancing (my beauty suffered of severe engine vibrations which was the main reason for disassembling the engine).

 

the pink line is like below with my modified mufflers as the only difference. The 3 HP gain ist caused by the mufflers.

 

I think the gain would be the same without that engine work.

The MY 2000 has no catalyst in the exhaust. The cans I modified were from a newer bike with catalyst. The cat is located in the first chamber when the gas flow enters the can. It does not matter if I modified a muffler with or without a catalyst, because I would remove the same piece of tube in the first chamber. Either a piece of tube or the catalyst. The result is the same.

Everyone has to decide for himself if the work is worth the effort. I like it that way.

I will keep you informed when I perform further modifications.

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Thanks for clearing that up.

You made good gains, while saving money from buying slip on mufflers, and you get to keep the stock appearance, and a modest sound increase.

More Gain and Less effort than swapping pistons and changing cam timing

Excellent :!:

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Guest jedione68
Thanks for clearing that up.

You made good gains, while saving money from buying slip on mufflers, and you get to keep the stock appearance, and a modest sound increase.

More Gain and Less effort than swapping pistons and changing cam timing

Excellent :!:

66646[/snapback]

Hello Guzzi's

 

This is the jedione. Just curious, since dropping in late

on this thread. Not about the stock cans, since thats what

you used to have to do back in the old days anyways, good job.

 

I'm curious about the compression / head work. I'm curious about

how much money one would really save by going this route when measured

with the over all out come of good old BHP. Was it a 3 BHP gain???

 

In my book, anytime the heads are comming off, your only a

minute away from doing anything you want down there. Like

pistons or rods. Now we could say pistons are expensive ($200 to $400).

 

But you've most likely going to part out the work for the machine work on

the heads and then sanding gaskets all night very carefully. And not

to mention, if you ever want to go back to true stock or don't like it

or want to add high-crown/high-comp pistons down the road... You can't.

There's no putting metal back on those the heads.

 

And my bottom line is, once the bikes apart, your gains with the little extra

cost of pistons would be greater and give you more choices.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've ground off the bottom of my heads on engine

builds before. But only once I've done everything in the book to Hot-Rod

my babe, and then want just a little more juice!!!

 

I'm still curious???

 

Peace, rubber side down,

jedione68

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... I'm curious about the compression / head work.  I'm curious about

how much money one would really save by going this route when measured

with the over all out come of good old BHP.  Was it a 3 BHP gain???

 

In my book, anytime the heads are comming off, your only a

minute away from doing anything you want down there.  Like

pistons or rods.  Now we could say pistons are expensive ($200 to $400)....

 

And my bottom line is, once the bikes apart, your gains with the little extra

cost of pistons would be greater and give you more choices...

67063[/snapback]

 

I think the moral of the story is that upping the CR isn't the route to more power on these old lumps, the bottleneck is in the breathing. Getting the heads ported/polished/flowed is going to give you more bang/$ than spending $400 on new pistons or $800-$1000 on a fancy exhaust.

 

Getting 3 ponies for some pretty simple backyard engineering is like raiding the change jar at the end of the month when you're dead broke: woohoo, free money! "Yippee, I can eat!" :food:

 

Nice to know that the stock cans aren't just completely hopeless, and that it is possible to get something more out of them. Looks like I'm going to have to buy some stainless wire & argon for my suck-@ss cheap wire welder & see if I can button those cans I sacrificed for the photos back up after making some "appropriate" adjustments... :thumbsup:

:mg:

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Guest jedione68
I think the moral of the story is that upping the CR isn't the route to more power on these old lumps, the bottleneck is in the breathing. Getting the heads ported/polished/flowed is going to give you more bang/$ than spending $400 on new pistons or $800-$1000 on a fancy exhaust.

 

Getting 3 ponies for some pretty simple backyard engineering is like raiding the change jar at the end of the month when you're dead broke: woohoo, free money! "Yippee, I can eat!"  :food:

 

Nice to know that the stock cans aren't just completely hopeless, and that it is possible to get something more out of them. Looks like I'm going to have to buy some stainless wire & argon for my suck-@ss cheap wire welder & see if I can button those cans I sacrificed for the photos back up after making some "appropriate" adjustments...  :thumbsup:

:mg:

67080[/snapback]

Skeeve,

I'm with ya on the breathing, thats all most a must do if your

looking for BHP gains. I didn't mention the porting/polishing

process due to fear of opening a whole new can of worms.

But since the cans open...

 

I look at an engine two ways. 1. Its fine and runs, so ride it.

or 2. I want more juice... then do the work.

 

For me, if I'm going to pull the heads off, I'm pulling everything off.

And add all the goodies, the machining, the sweat... Your there,

just do it all. Would ya go to your local GYM and just do arm curls

everyday and skip the rest of yourself. Or fly all the way to Hawaii, yet never leave the hotel swimming pool?

 

And I love back yard engineering. Hell, I do it all the time.

But thats some "SERIOUS" shaking and more shaking

of the Penny jar for a Hot-dog.

 

And last but least, last time I had some serious head work done.

Ouch! It made performance pistons look like a good deal $$$ wise.

 

Lions, Tigers and a can of worms , oh my!

 

Peace to all, rubber side down,

jedione68

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I think the moral of the story is that upping the CR isn't the route to more power on these old lumps,

67080[/snapback]

 

I think I know why Ernst upped the Compression Ratio.

hint:

"Vorarlberg: Motorcycling in Austria’s West

Thanks to its diverse landscape, Vorarlberg is a true paradise for motorcyclists. One of the most popular roads is the Silvretta Hochalpenstraße from Partenen at the very end of the Montafon valley to Bielerhöhe pass at 2032m. The 23km road, which boasts a total of 32 sharp bends..."

 

For flatlanders bumping the compression may be asking for trouble or access to racing fuel.

But for people who do most of their motorcycling above 1000meters, it is almost a neccessity.

EDIT but I guess he has some pinging....so maybe it he is not always at a high altitude....pinging will be fixed with Ultimap.

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Hello you all  :luigi:

...

Attached is the power graph: completely stock, slight modifications on engine with CR +0,5, like above with my modified mufflers.

 

...

Have a good day

Ernst

66342[/snapback]

 

Hi Ernst,

 

do you have any torque curves?

 

Hubert

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Hello

 

here are the torques that correspond to the power graph before:

 

My engine was runnig as good as some stock engine runs; my main complaint on the bike was the really serious engine vibrations.

Last winter the gearbox was undergoing a warranty repair, so the engine was out of the frame. This was the reason for me to fix the vibrations issue by balancing the crankshaft. When I then reassembled the engine, I wanted to get it all right: so I optimized the squish area of the combustion chamber by bringing the piston completely out of the bore, milled further 0.5 mm off the heads - stock CR was calculated to a modest 9.15!!, now I have 9.6. I further rectified the cam timing.

This are adjustments I would do on every engine I complete on my workbench.

I never intended to build a performance engine. If I wanted this, a new set of pistons would be necessary, to raise compression and much lighter in weight. A different crank balancing then would be necessary.

But the stock pistons are heavy and stout items and since I did not want an all out performance engine, there is no reason to replace pistons in perfect condition.

Tuning means to make the best of the parts you have. This is my way to go. It took a lot of time to do all this but I like this kind of work. And my engine is now as it sould have come from the Guzzi factory.

Vorarlberg: Motorcycling in Austria’s West

Vorarlberg is approx. 650 km away from my home, the same distance as Mandello del Lario.

Skeeve

I disagree with you that the breathing of the head is the bottleneck of the V11 engine. The heads are good for 100 HP at the crank with an open intake and exhaust when well tuned. Bigger valves and ports would not help the engine in making power for a road going engine. But I think it would well respond to more valve lift for making power in a race engine which lacks of the goods in the lower rpm range.

A camshaft design with shorter timing and more lift seems for me to be the route to go for the road. I am looking forward in this direction.

 

This was now a lot away from the muffler theme. But the gain from building the engine to optimized specs and modifiing the mufflers was a good 5 HP at the rear wheels. With almost stock noise level.

Next time I open my cans ,I will take some photo shoots.....

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Did the bike ping more after you raised the compression ratio?

Do you do a lot of riding above 1000meters altitude?

And if so, does the pinging go away?

I don't think the ultimap for Guzzi offers timing adjustment(I could be wrong)

Perhaps you would have been better off with Techno Research's Direct Link or TuneBoy's TuneEdit

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The engine pinged before I raised the CR, and it still pings in the same circumstances, maybe a bit more.

I sometimes ride above 1000 m altitunde, but I can't say wether this affects the pinging or not.

I hope I can cure this using the the ultimap software by remapping fuel and ignition timing. I will start with the fuel to make it richer around 3000. When the pinging is not gone then, I can retard the ignition.

Tune boy ist not available here in Europe, as far as I know.

Direct Link is available by a source in Germany, but expansive: Software 260 €, every key 325 €.

Ultimap is expansive to aquire at 1200 €, but 2 keys and 2 megazone Eproms are included. Every further key or Megazone Eprom is at 89 €.

Ultimap includes the diagnostic software, fault code reading and deleting, Idle adjustment, TP adjustment. With the megazone Eproms you can tune the older P8 and 1.6 Injection units. All this requieres no key. Only for remapping the 1.5 or U59 units a key is needed.

And some support is available not too far away from my home. Should something go wrong......(hopefully not).

 

The temperatures are around zero C here in Austria... don't like it.

 

Ernst

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Dang! I did not know the Direct Link cost so much in Europe!

And I did not know all the details on the Ultimap.

Tuneboy is available here, it is inexpensive, but barely out of Beta testing.

Still the important features work great!

I think once you map out the pinging the higher compression will really pay off.

Keep us posted, even if we have to wait till Spring!

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...

Tuneboy is available here, it is inexpensive, but barely out of Beta testing.

Still the important features work great!

.....

67334[/snapback]

 

The screen says "Beta", that's right, but this goes only for the WM15/WM16 ecus. For Aprilia and Triumph it's a well proofen system since quite some time.

 

Hubert

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The engine pinged before I raised the CR, and it still pings in the same circumstances, maybe a bit more.

...

 

The temperatures are around zero C here in Austria... don't like it.

 

Ernst

67302[/snapback]

 

Ernst,

 

are you sure that your EFI is set up exactly as the book says? I ask this because my 2000/Limone never was really pinging!

 

It makes some single pings when very hot and only at the moment I open the throttle at idle, never when it runs at constant speed, regardless what load. I do not use better fuel than 98 ROZ.

 

Hubert

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