ECU

[dlaing]

QUOTE(dlaing @ Jan 3 2005, 12:24 PM)

His pricing plan took a little reading to understand.

It would help if he did not have a high contrast image behind the text.

He sells a kit that has one key for one bike for $310, about the price of a PCIIIUSB... and four bikes 640 (160 per bike) Anybody in So-Cal want to split expenses? Or would that be a violation of the software license????

 

 

Todd said "Doesn't help a Tuning Link operator much... and the end user is pretty helpless without them."

No, I think it does help the operator. He can sell an ECU tuning for $150 plus dyno time.

With the PCIII you are looking at $300+ plus dyno time.

I am not sure how the keys work. If they have to stock a key for every model that would not be ideal. The same would hold true with the PCIII, but the keys are smaller, I assume, and cheaper, so less overhead for stocking parts....now if the dyno dude could download a key, that would be motivating feature, but probably hackable.

But point taken about these products not being worth much without a map. So somebody has to be the guinea pig for the first generic maps. I know you, Todd, have gone through great efforts to provide our community with maps and pushed Dyna to make models for the 16 series...But I suspect maps will follow shortly. As for true custom maps, it does look like the tuning link for PCIII has the edge in price, but does that offset the $150 vs $300? And I would not be satisfied with just a key and no software, so I would have to buy the kit, so I would be looking at $300 vs. $300 plus increased dyno time dollars for the tuning boy (did I mention the name 'boy' is not pollitically correct?!? Kinda like White Power shock absorbers...)

QUOTE(dlaing again)

Dynojet is now finalizing a Timing Module plug-in for PCIIIusb.. But it is correct until we can buy it. And don't forget, some of us are gonna fry are ECUs and come running to you for the superior upgrade.

 

Todd again "Ok, David, so you'll be in line when it arrives then? All of this work and push of late to develop these things warrants litte-to-no sales for these with marques like Guzzi.

Why/how are you going to fry an ECU? Hasn't happened on any that I've known of, and they can be found regularly on eBay for about $100 ($400~ish new)."

 

yah, I wish Tuning Boy came along alot sooner, before I bought my PCIII....Used ECUs for $100! OK sorry Cliff, the only advantage I see now with the My15Mis the closed loop capability...drat! We all appreciate the effort you have made. Maybe you could program the ECU to play iTunes, or maybe Tuning Boy already does.

 

 

Todd again"Also David, you might be forgetting that 02-sensored bikes run a VERY

limited portion of the map (low throttle settings) in closed loop. All else is still open loop."

 

Yah, I am not a big proponent of closed loop, but I imagine it could help fuel efficieny when touring the super slabs, not something I enjoy. Or is steady 80MPH out of the range of the closed loop? That would be kind of silly. Perhaps the governments don't expect us to go that fast.

[luhbo]

I just looked at the before mentioned dyno-prices. They want more than $2000 for a complete map. That looks impressive, in deed.

 

On the other hand, can you guess what a dyno equipement like that costs? I have no imagination, to be honest.

 

Let me mention an other story to spot my point: actually I have my automatic wrist watch being repaired. The spring is broken, costs about 20,- Euros. They want 140,- Euros for the complete action, and they need only a screwdriver and a magnifying glass.

 

Hubert

[TX REDNECK (R.I.P.)]

These F.I. bikes SUCK! I long for the days of jets & needles

[Guest wmcdonal]

I think it's safe to say that while the 15M is far from perfect, it's not too damn bad in the grand scheme of things. I just remembered that the PCIII does NOTHING to the mixture based on barometric pressure... it is solely the ECU's responsibility.

 

I didn't say the PCIII did make changes based on barometric pressure. I said it calculates trim percentages incorrectly. I think you should read my post again as I don't think you understood.

 

I've been following a thread on the Aprilia board where mapping prices with Tuneboy are bringing $1200-2000USD. True?

 

Let me ask you this.

If I installed a PCIII on my bike, then took it to a dyno shop with a Dyno Dynamics dyno and spent 40 hours tuning every point.

If I did this and got charged $4000. Would you then say it costs $4000 to tune a bike with a PCIII?

I don't think so.

 

I myself use a DynoJet 250 dyno with the Tuning Link software, I can use the tuning link software and remap the stock ECU in about the same time it takes to tune a bike with a PCIII.

Then if I feel like it I can spend some time and map the ignition.

 

I sill have yet to see that you've addressed my comments of Tuning Link Center use fees(?).

 

If a dyno shop buys the software they pay the price shown on the web page for the first three keys, then they get them for $100.

 

I think that Cliff has the best method, tune in the real world where you ride the bike.

 

I should also point out that my software can be used to revive most ECU's that have been killed by a failed download with the Axone service tool.

[Guest wmcdonal]

If you're near Sydney at any time we should get together.

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I am in Chatswood, where are you?

[dlaing]

What is the Axeone service tool.

Is that included in the kit?

 

Also, I think you should register the domain www.tuningboy.net before someone else does.

Although it is nice that you remind us that you are in Oz.

Too bad someone else has the .com name.

[JuhaV]

Hi,

 

There seems to be several approaches available to these ECU issues with each of them having their pros and cons. However, I would like to draw your attention again to this closed-loop versus open-loop issue and try to take a little look into the near future. Sorry for the lengthy submission, but you know, it is winter now here in Finland

 

If you see, for example http://www.forparts.com/BoswidebandO2.htm, you can appreciate that the 02 sensors are under continuous development in the similar manner than also all other things in this technical world.

 

The traditional (narrow band) O2 sensors, that can be today found in most of the cars and some motorcycles, give only a rich-lean indication. They can't tell the computer the exact air/fuel ratio. Further, their response times are rather slow (>> 0.1 s). This means that they are mainly good for slow response fine tuning of the mixture: Every time the oxygen sensor's output jumps or drops, the engine computer responds by decreasing or increasing the amount of fuel that is delivered. This rapid flip-flopping back and forth allows the feedback fuel control system to maintain a more-or-less balanced mixture, on average. In other words, they are most useful in steady state conditions the engine running with steady rpm and throttle. This situation is to be heavily avoided by any sportish bike rider having some self-respect

 

BUT, and here is the interesting stuff, the newest generation of oxygen sensors is a totally different story ! They are already available today with the price going down all the time when they are installed in a growing number of new cars that need to meet the ever more tightening emission regulations. These sensors are being called "wideband" lambda sensors or "air/fuel ratio sensors", because that's exactly what they do. They provide a precise indication of the exact air/fuel ratio, and over a much broader range of mixtures - all the way from 0.7 lambda (11:1 air/fuel ratio) to straight air. For example, Bosch LSU 4 wideband oxygen sensor has a response time of less than 100 milliseconds to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The price of this sensor is somewhere between 50-100 US dollars depending where you buy it. Because of its nature, the sensor requires a separate control unit to provide the sensor certain reference voltages and in order to interpret the current signal that the sensor outputs (see for example, http://wbo2.com/). After a couple of years, I think that most of the new cars have these wide-band units instead of the narrow-band sensors.

 

Alltogether, this means that already today you can plug into your exhaust a very accurate and fast sensor to tell ten times a second how your mixture was. Yes, I used there the past tense, because the 02 sensor always lacks behind and it is the ECU that needs to make clever forecast what is going to happen next. That requires intelligent software but it is possible to do.

 

Now, what means then “closed-loop”. Let us define that open-loop means no feedback from the exhaust to the computer at all. Then there can be “full” closed-loop or “partial” closed-loop. Full closed-loop could be defined to mean that fuel injection is fully calculated using the lambda sensor values without any kind of fuel map. I do not know if such systems even exist. Partial closed-loop requires some further definitions. Do we mean partial map closed-loop or partial adjustment closed-loop. Sorry, I have made these terms up just to clarify the difference

 

Partial map closed-loop means that in some parts of the map the computer performs closed-loop adjustement to the mixture and in some parts of the map the system is in the open-loop mode. This seems to be the case in the newer Guzzis, where the map is open-loop above some rpm & throttle values.

 

Partial adjustment closed-loop means that the lambda sensor is allowed to cause only a certain amount correction to the injection values, let’s say plus/minus 15 %. The base values are taken from the map.

 

Further, there can be different O2 target values for different parts of the map: multi-target closed-loop ?

 

Based on the above, I would like to say that it is a rather huge understatement to say that closed-loop is not useful in motorcycles !

 

Even today, we can have a wide-band 02 sensor in the bike and use that info to fine-tune the fuel injection at the rate of ten times per second. If this is done by further defining different 02 targets for different parts of the map and then allowing, for example, 10-15 % adjustement for the map values, I would say that this is useful beyond steady state riding. There are also even today some acceleration pump simulators available for the ECUs, and these can be made to better predict the fuel injection “future” based on the “historical” data from the throttle position, rpm and 02 sensor.

 

Further, by using separate 02 sensor for each cylinder, the fuel injection could be individually adjusted.

 

Even further, a knock sensor could provide similar tuning possibilities to fine tune the ignition timing in real time.

 

My feeling is that when these possibilities are there, it means that instead of dyno tuning our bikes once or twice, in the near future we kind of carry the dyno with us all the time and shift into continuous realtime tuning. A dyno will be an instrument to define the base map, but the closed-loop operation is the key to have a perfect map all the time.

 

Many seem to think that 02 sensor is there only to meet the emission standards and therefore we are better of without it. At least for me, the 02 sensor is there to ensure that I get maximum performance out the engine all the time

 

Br, JuhaV

 

Sport Corsa 1100i

* partial map and partial adjustment closed-loop with My16M

* wide-band 02 sensor and multi-target closed-loop to be included

[GuzzTim]

At least for me, the 02 sensor is there to ensure that I get maximum performance out the engine all the time

 

As Spock would say... "sounds logical"

 

But what's the return in investment? With a 2 cyl motor such as we have, how much incremental benefit would you expect to derive from this ? Is it a pursuit of speed? If so, for me I think I would take the $$ and do another track day, buy better tires, tweak the suspension as a better return on investment.

 

However, you can't put a price on the inherent value of tinkering...

 

 

Cheers from sunny California, at least for the couple of hours before the rains return.

 

Tim

[Guest TT Guzzi]

Hi,

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=37048

 

TT Guzzi

[RacerX]

I didn't say the PCIII did make changes based on barometric pressure. I said it calculates trim percentages incorrectly. I think you should read my post again as I don't think you understood.

I will.

 

Let me ask you this. If I installed a PCIII on my bike, then took it to a dyno shop with a Dyno Dynamics dyno and spent 40 hours tuning every point. If I did this and got charged $4000. Would you then say it costs $4000 to tune a bike with a PCIII? I don't think so. I myself use a DynoJet 250 dyno with the Tuning Link software, I can use the tuning link software and remap the stock ECU in about the same time it takes to tune a bike with a PCIII.

Spending 40 hours mapping is plain stupid, no matter what the cost. TLCenters, as you state in the last part don't. I'm not seeing what your point is?

 

If a dyno shop buys the software they pay the price shown on the web page for the first three keys, then they get them for $100.

Ok, finally answered thanks. So... dlaing says that TL Centers should'nt make a penny on this (per above), and now everyone knows what you charge TL Dyno Centers. It would've been nice to have this part off-list.

So, now would be the time to say how about you send me one for trial (two keys for my two bikes please), and if I like using it on the dyno, I'll pay for it, start using it for mapping... and promote it's use on GuzziTech.com.

 

I think that Cliff has the best method, tune in the real world where you ride the bike.

Even Cliff builds a baseline on a Load-cell dyno... which still prove to be the best way to build a map, per your very own words above.

 

I should also point out that my software can be used to revive most ECU's that have been killed by a failed download with the Axone service tool.

Clarifying for dlaing... this is not for Guzzi's 15M ECU. And David, you really should go back and re-read this whole post in depth.

 

For all posts regarding 02 sensor based mapping... please search my post on

'02 Sensors' from earlier. Should shed some light on your posts.

GuzzTim has the right idea though... track time is far worth the investment over all of this non-sense.

 

These F.I. bikes SUCK! I long for the days of jets & needles

Heh!

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

Instructor Red Shift Track School

[Guest wmcdonal]

What is the Axeone service tool.

 

The Axone tool is the official service tool sold to dealers, this allows a sports pipe map to be loaded into the 15M ECU.

 

On the issue of price. If I had the choice of payine $150 and knowing the dealer makes $50, or paying $300 and not knowing what the dealer makes I would still take the $150 option.

 

The point on tuning is simple, just because someone paid $2000 does not mean that is what it will cost.

It will take about the same time to tune the standard ECU using the Tuning Link as it would tuning a PCIII with the Tuning Link. As such I would expect the cost of dyno time to be the same.

You seem to be trying to imply that it will cost $1200 - $2000 to have your bike tuned with TuneBoy.

[dlaing]

snip  So... dlaing says that TL Centers should'nt make a penny on this (per above), and now snip.

Clarifying for dlaing... this is not for Guzzi's 15M ECU. And David, you really should go back and re-read this whole post in depth.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

Instructor Red Shift Track School

40320[/snapback]

 

I said no such thing

And at your suggestion, I re-read this whole post and amazed myself that I don't think I missed a thang.

 

Since I re-read everything, want me to re-hash it for you?

People are looking for the best solutions for their fueling and igniting needs.

1 Tex is happy with his carbureted Solex

2 Some people not only want mapping, but diagnostics.

3 Cliffs ECU appears to be the worst deal Which is a shame after the great effort he made. But perhaps he can go open source and put that tuning boy out of business like Linux did to Microsuck

4 Tuning Boy seems to do everything the software at FBF does for less money.

5 Tuning Boy seems to do everything the PCIII currently does, and more, for less.

 

So Todd, you better message this guy offboard and cut a deal, forget about the No Money Down guarantee. I am suprised that you guys are conflicting.

Tuning Boy ain't no obsolete chip that simply enrichens the mixture, it diagnosis the computer and adjusts the maps where the maps are meant to be adjusted. It does it all without an added box under the seat. But I would miss the buttons on the PCIII.

Of course it took the guy five years to make a product for MY BIKE, while PCs were there within a year. Can Tuning Boy adjust to low sales, High R&D market as fast as PowerCommander?

Will PowerCommander lock down the TuningLink so that only PCIIIs can benefit?

Stay Tuned!

 

PS great post JuhaV. Your point leads me to speculate whether Cliff's ECU may still have fire under the belly if the Closed loop can be better executed than on the Boxxer Beemers.

[Cliff]

Well I think the Tuneboy is a great solution for the 15M and neatly solves most if not all of the 15M problem/limitations. Probably would of gone that way myself except 10yrs of working with microsoft software had giving me a gut full of trying to work out how the other guy does things.

 

There's still some hope for My15M though. I'm sure all My16M users will agree, there's more to a sweet running bike than mapping. Most were running better with my Sport Corsa map on My16M than they were with their weber. That includes Centauros, Daytonas and even a Cagiva Eliphant? I think only 3 or 4 have actually dynoed their bike. So maybe My15M will succeed simply because it works better.

 

To summarise My15M benefits over WM15 + Tuneboy.

 

- Throttle pump emulation

- Optional closed loop implemention that does not have any problems that I know of.

- On road adjustability/diagnosis ( unless you ride with you laptop )

- Automatic map improvement ( currently with optional Optimiser only )

- On going development

 

To summarise PC benefits over WM15 + Tuneboy.

Throttle pump

[JuhaV]

PS great post JuhaV. Your point leads me to speculate whether Cliff's ECU may still have fire under the belly if the Closed loop can be better executed than on the Boxxer Beemers.

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Thanks Dlaing,

 

I myself think that all others are limited either because of the software or hardware, but Cliff is the only one who masters both sides. So, in principle he is free to make whatever is needed if he is just motivated to do so. And we should remember that he is propably also the one who has but most of the development work specifically towards the Guzzi engine. I bet that there are many who would be interested to see what is inside his code.

 

TuneBoy and Cliff share the same island So, why not do some work together to make the perfect ECU-hardware / software combination. Even the wide-band lambda sensors + electronics are available from down under, so in this case I keep looking towards that direction also in the future.

 

I am running closed-loop practically all over my map without any ill effects at all and at the moment relying on not-that-perfect narrow-band sensor. I use the sensor at its rich "edge", where the accuracy is not perfect, but still it gives me better results than without the feedback.

 

br, JuhaV

[BrianG]

Tex, don't ya think that twiddling with 1's and 0's is cleaner and handier than diddling with needles and jets? They are both just fixed A/F map algorithms!