V11 Modifications - Opinions?

[Guest ratchethack]

Your reasons 8 through whatever are absurd.

Even #17, Dave?!

 

But how else can Eraldo honestly offer 140 HP - "No problem"?!

 

Eraldo has not been given the opportunity to substantiate those claims.

Perhaps our hero should've come up with a few credible dyno pulls before making the claim? Had he put the horse before the cart, 'stead o' gettin' it bass ackwards, maybe his claim wouldn't appear so, well....er, blatant and....uh, unsubstantiated?

 

Absent this, d'ya reckon he's had enough of an opportunity since that article was published to substantiate his claim after the fact?

 

Just checkin'!

[badmotogoozer]

By all means, find somebody you don't know, who's raving, and whose ego seems to be wrapped up in the excitement and attention of the moment - especially if he's attracted some kind of "media" attention.  Just do whatever he's done, and go with whatever it is that Mr. Anonymous has to say to justify what he's already substantially committed himself to.  The woods'r full of 'em... <_>

 

79200[/snapback]

 

full indeed. We've even got one here.

 

Rj

[Guest ratchethack]

full indeed.  We've even got one here. 

 

Rj

Say there Ryan! Long time!

 

How's winter in The Great White North, eh?

[dlaing]

Even #17, Dave?!  

79441[/snapback]

whatever.

[al_roethlisberger]

Just a word about Mike Rich and those Mr. Softy Valve stems.  My 2000 Jackal was running perfectly at 25k (miles that is) when I pulled the heads to have the ports matched and the valves looked at.

 

Mike Rich used to be out on Long Island New York so I drove out to drop off my heads.  Mike removed all four valves as I stood there and used a micrometer on them.  All the valves were worn with the exhaust valves showing "significant" wear.  I think he could sense that the numbers he rattled off were not meaningful to me so he dropped the exhaust valve back into its guide and held it up to the light to show me.  It was so worn I saw a crescent moon of light passing between the guide and the stem.

 

2000 Jackal valves different from 2000 V11 Sport?  Can't say...

 

I just hope my '04 Sport shows more durable metallurgy.

 

DW

 

Valve adjustment article

79347[/snapback]

 

 

 

Yes, and he measured my valves when I had my heads ported and dual-plugged. There was significant wear.

 

I believe that Carl Allison also posted photos of his worn valves.

 

I don't think it is anything to really worry about, but potentially something to check every blue moon if you are already "in there" for some reason.

 

Al

 

 

P.S.

 

That old Moto Euro article should be taken with the appropriate skepticism in light of the obvious marketing piece that it was. I'm sure some performance claims are very optimized, and or embellished a bit

[motoguzznix]

I agree with Al and guzziowr concerning the valve stem hardness.

 

When I dismounted my 2000 V11s heads with 9000 km on the clock last year, the valve stems had considerable wear. I could feel it with the finger nail.

One valve guide had the bore for the valve stem excentric by approx.1 mm, not surprisingly the valve did not seal on that seat. Another valve guide had bronze residues from the machining in the area where the cylindric contour changes to conical. One valve seat showed rattling marks from the machining where it sould seal.

I will replace valves and guides soon using carbon coated valves.

 

Ratchet

 

Your pals tuned V11 seems to be a disaster. I would suppose the tuning had not been performed by an expert mechanic.

I hope you will measure the real compression ratio of the bike before you pull off the heads and keep us informed. And I would not be surprised when there would be a lot of things wrong inside that engine. Replacing the valves at the same time could be a good idea.

[Guest ratchethack]

I agree with Al and guzziowr concerning the valve stem hardness.

MGNX, you and Guzziownr and Al have got me more concerned about my valve stems & guides now. I had planned on a thorough top-end job with possible new valves at 40-50K miles, but may consider doing a heads-off inspection at 30K now.

Ratchet

 

Your pals tuned V11 seems to be a disaster.  I would suppose the tuning had not been performed by an expert mechanic.   

I hope you will measure the real compression ratio of the bike before you pull off the heads and keep us informed. And I would not be surprised when there would be a lot of things wrong inside that engine. Replacing the valves at the same time could be a good idea. 

I think "disaster" is a bit strong, and I may have over-stated the rough running at low RPM a bit, 'cause I'm comparing it to my own Guzzi. (So's the owner ). One of the problems is that no one has the complete history, since he bought the bike second-hand off the floor of a dealership, and the PO seems to be long gone. Supposedly the PC III has a custom map. What we know for sure is that it seems to run perfectly well at mid and upper RPMs and the plugs read fine with race gas - and it will idle well enough, just not at all like mine. And it does balk when the throttle is whacked open at low-ish RPM. Both the Head Wrench at the dealer (not by any means a bad shop, BTW) and the owner are convinced that stock CR and a new PC III map will solve the worst of the problems at minimum. Bottom line, my pal can't live with race gas, and they think it won't run on pump gas without holing the pistons. Seems this ain't the first time the dealer's seen this kinda thing.... For all anyone knows, the valves have already been replaced with larger valves. If they're still the original valves, they don't have enough miles on 'em for concern about guide wear anyway.

 

Chasing ping, there's only so much that richening can do (and that ain't much). Richening the map is a bit of a band-aid approach to combat ping anyway. He hasn't tried retarding the timing, but I think he's convinced now that he needs a more definite solution.

 

All will be made clear when the heads come off. Will advise.

[Anthony]

Has anybody out there tried any these mods?:

 

http://www.moto-euro.com/sample_article_9.htm

 

If so, what do you think of the results?  I am particularly interested in the high compression pistons and their effect on the bikes power delivery i.e. more power and torque everywhere or just more high end horses?

 

I work very near the FBF dealership mentioned in the article and am considering some or all of these mods sometime in the future for my Coppa.

 

Thanks.

79045[/snapback]

 

 

DO IT!

 

I bought a 2004 LeMans this past December from FBF and had them install their cross-over, CF slip-ons, high compression pistons, oversize valves(intake and exhaust), air filter, ported the heads, and added a PC3. Mr. F did the mapping. It is smooth and seems endless - both power and torque went up. Also, there is a noticeable difference in the vibration when it compared to my stock (execpt FBF air filter and PC2) 2003 LeMans. The 2003 was not mapped on a dyno. I am playing with it, which explains alot. As soon as there is a break in the weather, I plan on taking it up to get mapped

 

I'll post the dyno and the parts list for the 2004.

[polebridge]

Wow…this is a great board! Thanks everyone for the response. I particularly enjoyed the discussion between Rachethack and dlaing. Rachethack, you stated that ‘ I personally favor the stock motor with Stucchi crossover, FBF oval carbon cans, and a PC III’. Is this your current configuration?

 

I already have the PCIII (not yet installed) with a map for a stock bike. I have been considering just going with the FBF cans, air filter kit, and crossover pipe and skipping the high compression pistons and valve work. If this is in fact how your bike is set up then how do you like the change and where did you get your PCIII map? I think that this is where I will start (and maybe end) first. I can always go with the FBF pistons and a custom map later on if I am so inclined.

 

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the feedback. Whatever mods (if any) I decide to go with I will be certain to post on this site along with my impressions.

 

Thanks again.

 

p.s. MikeC – I live in Morris Township, NJ (right next to Morristown). When the weather gets better we should consider hooking up for a ride. Mind you that I will probably have my wife with me (she really likes the whole passenger thing). We typically take some nice roads from our home down the Lambertville/New Hope area. It’s a really nice ride.

[dlaing]

I particularly enjoyed the discussion between Rachethack and dlaing. 

79643[/snapback]

Alright! all that pain and suffering paid off.

Many people just flip the channel when Ratchet and I have a discussion.

[Guest ratchethack]

Wow…this is a great board!  Thanks everyone for the response.  I particularly enjoyed the discussion between Rachethack and dlaing.  

Say Polebridge - then do you also enjoy garlic high colonics and "prickly heat"?

Just kiddin'! You must have a bit of a sense of humor...

Glad to know there's at least some benefit, anyway, my friend...

Rachethack,  you stated that ‘ I personally favor the stock motor with Stucchi crossover, FBF oval carbon cans, and a PC III’.   Is this your current configuration?

 

I already have the PCIII (not yet installed) with a map for a stock bike.  I have been considering just going with the FBF cans, air filter kit, and crossover pipe and skipping the high compression pistons and valve work.   If this is in fact how your bike is set up then how do you like the change and where did you get your PCIII map? I think that this is where I will start (and maybe end) first.  I can always go with the FBF pistons and a custom map later on if I am so inclined.

Yep, that's my current config. Now unnerstan', please, that I'm a self-confessed Road Geez. By that, I mean that unlike many of the Boy Racers, Posers, and other assorted Squidly Types that I find on the road, I'm neither racing, pseudo-racing, chasing peaks on dyno charts, nor am I pursuing Land Speed records. I didn't buy my Guzzi after nearly a dozen prior bikes to make any kind of a "statement", either. If I had wanted a "performance bike", I'd have bought one. Those days came and went decades ago. I'm way past the "more is better" philosophy of motorcycle ownership. I harbor no illusions about the reality of a halfway-competent rider on a 600cc HyperBike easily riding circles around me and my Guzzi anywhere, any time - nor does the thought concern me in any way whatsoever. I bought the Guzzi for four primary reasons, which will differ considerably from the reasons of many others:

 

1. The torque spread of the V11, combined with the superbly matched ratios of the 6-speed box, is the finest, most satisfying combination for my kind of riding that I've yet to encounter.

 

2. The ergonomics of the stock bars, pegs and seat on the 2000 Sport are likewise among the most comfortable, most satisfying combination for my kind of riding that I've yet to encounter.

 

3. The handling, once properly set-up and dialed-in, seems to be the perfect combination of rock-steady-at-speed stability and tire-edge-to-tire-edge (no chicken strips) confidence-inspiring, forgiving combo for a Road Geez who likes to ride in the local mountains. I have no use whatsoever for the sticky "sport" tires at the top of magazine eval charts that go away in a few thou miles. IMHO, the best of today's "sport-touring" tires are SO GOOD, they must be heaven-sent!

 

4. Unlike typical "disposable" motorcycles, the Guzzi may be owned and properly maintained in a high state of tune for literally hundreds of thousands of smile-producing miles on the road. IMHO, Guzzi's tend to be on the road decades after most of your garden-variety "moto appliances" have either been parted out or otherwise thrashed beyond roadworthiness.

 

The mods I've done (including higher-rate fork springs) were carefully selected on a cost/benefit basis to further develop and enhance the above criteria. The first mod was The Stucchi crossover, based on the credible dyno pulls done by Doug Manley. I was very pleased with the results, as expected. It very nicely smoothed-over the stock "hole" in the torque curve at 4500 RPM. The PC III came next, and solved the low-end flat spots in power delivery, and provided a much smoother, more positive throttle response overall. A tremendous value, and likely the best addition I've done. I got the "off-the-shelf" map (#003) from Todd Eagan at GuzziTech. The FBF oval carbons seemed to give the bike a bit of a boost at mid and upper RPMs, but the clincher on these was (I confess) that sound, which I still consider to be the most wonderful aural magic in all of motorcycling. But o'course, that's just me.

 

I'm not too squeamish about controversy, as you may've noticed. The very last mod I'd consider is larger valves than the already large-valve Sport motor. The reason for this isn't just the experience of my Pal with the FBF 11:1 pistons and the who-knows-what "pig-in-a-poke" valves. At one point I actually considered trading heads with a guy with a Jackal with smaller-valve heads, in pursuit of an enhanced mid-range. Y'see, I spend next to ZERO throttle time at WOT, and even less sustained time at redline, though I do wind out the motor to yellow-line as a general rule in the lower gears. The way I ride, I find that I simply have no need for WOT for any more'n something like a few seconds every couple hundred miles - at most.

 

That fabulous V-11 mid-range torque curve is what I like best, and the larger-valve heads provide no benefit whatsoever (and have downside considerations at low and mid-range RPMs) according to the long-time tuners who know and build these engines. Most of 'em seem to favor the mid-valve and even small-valve heads for superior tractability, even for racing. But that's just my perception, and many others will no doubt take vociferous exception. If my Guzzi didn't run so well and so smoothly, (I generally hesititate to fix wot ain't broke) I'd likely have swapped-out the heads for the mid-valvers.

 

There's certainly more horsepower to be had by going to an open-top airbox or pods, if'n that's what tickles y'er fancy. Me? In pursuit of an even further-enhanced midrange, I tried an open-top airbox, but went back to stock due to deafening (to me) intake honk. If I need more power, I just make sure the tach reads at least 4500 RPM and dial-up more throttle. With my current config, wot's on tap's almost always more'n this Road Geez ever needs (or wants).

 

One more thing. I've always done 100% of my own work on all my bikes. The Guzzi, moreso than any bike I've owned, seems to somehow reward the "hands-on" man-machine relationship far better than any other. The Sports are very easy to work on without a fairing.

 

So there you have it, my friend. I hope this helps!

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

P.S.

 

Whatever mods (if any) I decide to go with I will be certain to post on this site along with my impressions.

By all means, keep us posted!

[Guest MikeC]

p.s. MikeC – I live in Morris Township, NJ (right next to Morristown).  When the weather gets better we should consider hooking up for a ride.  Mind you that I will probably have my wife with me (she really likes the whole passenger thing).  We typically take some nice roads from our home down the Lambertville/New Hope area.  It’s a really nice ride.

79643[/snapback]

 

Your real close! I live in Parsippany. We must get together. My wife does not like to ride which is fine with me I prefer solo although my 10 year old daughter loves to ride but I do short trips with her and stay off of busy roads.

 

Most of my routes are in the northern half of the state and NY. The little picture of my bike in my posts was taken at Greenwood Lake on the NY side.

 

Shoot me an email directly.

 

capurso1@optonline.net

[Skeeve]

Ebay windage tray

 

Just to distract you guys from the bickering...

 

What do you think of this windage tray on eBay? Seems awfully complex compared to the simple flat-sheet cutout that Pete Roper? did up. BTW, did anyone ever makeup a PDF of that thing, so anyone can print it out, tape it down, & cut out their own windage tray? Seems like it would be a popular DIY sort of mod...

 

Ride on!

[dlaing]

Ebay windage tray

 

Just to distract you guys from the bickering...

 

What do you think of this windage tray on eBay? Seems awfully complex compared to the simple flat-sheet cutout that Pete Roper? did up. BTW, did anyone ever makeup a PDF of that thing, so anyone can print it out, tape it down, & cut out their own windage tray? Seems like it would be a popular DIY sort of mod...

 

Ride on!

79729[/snapback]

You might just end up having started a major brawl

In my unhumble but ignorant opinion, this is far superior to what mister roper propagates.

But I could be wrong.

It looks like the one Pete suggests require an extra pan gasket and increases the chance of leaking, while this one appears not to do that.

EDIT I am wrong, the one Pete suggests goes up higher in the sump, so you need an extra sump gasket, not a pan gasket....and so the risk of leaking is much less as this is a more permanent sealing point

[Greg Field]

Just to distract you all even further, Dr. John told me the most satisfying motor he had built was a combo of the mid-valve cruiser engine with the larger fuel-injection throttle bodies of the Sport engines . . .