Re-engineering the Shift Spring

[NicoNZ]

On 4/4/2023 at 4:49 PM, Guzziglide said:

New to the forum and amazed by the depth of knowledge and generosity in sharing of information.

 

I have a 2004 Cafe Sport which has been largely trouble free fortunately.  We are planning some longer trips this year so I’m spending some time on this forum and making sure I’ve addressed as many potential problem areas as possible.

I wasn’t aware of the spring issue so I’d be interested in ordering a couple of yours to have on hand for our trip.  If there are still some available?
 

Is it inevitable that the original spring fails in your experience?  I have about 40,000 km on the bike.

Thanks in advance!

 

Gary

I have a cafe sport with 69k km on the clock now. I know the previous owner has had trouble with a broken pawl spring. I bought the bike with 60k km on the clock. Thanks to the Italian motorcycle owners club here in NZ, our president ordered a bunch of these springs to distribute to V11 owners here.

I am going to change it out after my mate with a 2001 model V11 sport was caught with a broken spring in the middle of the countryside with a broken spring about a month ago. Cheap insurance I say. While you are at it I would add the gear shift extender bracket that makes the shift travel shorter than standard.

[docc]

8 hours ago, NicoNZ said:

I have a cafe sport with 69k km on the clock now. I know the previous owner has had trouble with a broken pawl spring. I bought the bike with 60k km on the clock. Thanks to the Italian motorcycle owners club here in NZ, our president ordered a bunch of these springs to distribute to V11 owners here.

I am going to change it out after my mate with a 2001 model V11 sport was caught with a broken spring in the middle of the countryside with a broken spring about a month ago. Cheap insurance I say. While you are at it I would add the gear shift extender bracket that makes the shift travel shorter than standard.

Great plan!

For best outcome, combine the Lucky Phil Shift Improvement(s) . . .

 

[cowtownchemist]

Well, I think I may also be in need of a full V11 shift improvement including the superspring and a Lucky Phil Shifter Extender.  I've noticed that occasionally when shifting up from 2nd to 3rd, I could "feel" through the shifter toe piece what may be the detents of the cog beating against the shift selector.  Sometimes it takes me multiple tries to get into third, and once it wouldn't shift back down to 2nd without a lot of trying. 

@Chuck, do you still have some available that I can buy from you?

 

 

[Tomchri]

Message Scud, he shoud still have plenty left.

Cheers Tom.

[docc]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:58 PM, cowtownchemist said:

Well, I think I may also be in need of a full V11 shift improvement including the superspring and a Lucky Phil Shifter Extender.  I've noticed that occasionally when shifting up from 2nd to 3rd, I could "feel" through the shifter toe piece what may be the detents of the cog beating against the shift selector.  Sometimes it takes me multiple tries to get into third, and once it wouldn't shift back down to 2nd without a lot of trying. 

@Chuck, do you still have some available that I can buy from you?

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tomchri said:

Message Scud, he shoud still have plenty left.

Cheers Tom.

I'm unclear if @cowtownchemist is asking about the Superspring (available from @Scud), or the LuckyPhil shift extender that @Chuck has produced in the past.

Or both.

[cowtownchemist]

I think both. I'm not entirely sure as I haven't looked inside yet. I didn't catch that Scud had the springs and Chuck had the extenders. I messaged Velofish the other day since I bought the bike from him. He said he has already replaced the spring. So that may not be my issue. I'll dive into it this next week or two and find our what's going on in there. 

[Chuck]

I still have a few Extenders from that absolutely last run. Scud sent me a few springs that I could use as "party favors" if someone needs one.

[p6x]

13 hours ago, cowtownchemist said:

I think both. I'm not entirely sure as I haven't looked inside yet. I didn't catch that Scud had the springs and Chuck had the extenders. I messaged Velofish the other day since I bought the bike from him. He said he has already replaced the spring. So that may not be my issue. I'll dive into it this next week or two and find our what's going on in there. 

I purchased a re-engineered pawl spring, but did not install it yet.

I want to check if the OEM one I re-installed will break again. This time, the coiled part of the spring is properly loose, and the effort is distributed around it as it should have always been. The stock springs may have been too tight around the axle, causing the fatigue to be localized at a single point.

I am including some photos so you can get a clear understanding of the issue.

I have the broken spring and new spring photographed together below, so you can easily see where the stock one broke.

 

[Chuck]

Quote

I want to check if the OEM one I re-installed will break again.

Most likely it will. It is already sacked from over travel. Compare it to a new spring, and you will see this. Maybe you will be lucky. I tested one that I don't think would have broken..

[p6x]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

Most likely it will. It is already sacked from over travel. Compare it to a new spring, and you will see this. Maybe you will be lucky. I tested one that I don't think would have broken..

I have seen how those springs are manufactured. Or at least, back in the days. I am guessing the build in quality control has improved considerably.

Before, the quality control was done by picking a spring every X number, and checking that it was still within manufacturing tolerances.

If out of specification, the machine would be adjusted and the production would resume.

The new machines are probably able to check accuracy during manufacturing, and adjusting without any human help.

I am not going to wait until the spring breaks again. I am going to do 15k miles, and I will check it out.

[MartyNZ]

14 hours ago, p6x said:

I am not going to wait until the spring breaks again. I am going to do 15k miles, and I will check it out.

The factory spring might last that long, but you can be certain that it will break eventually.

Chuck did the calculations on the factory spring and determined that it was poorly designed. It needed to have another turn in the loops. Otherwise, in normal operation, the spring wire deflection exceeds the elastic limit, going into plastic deformation (the permanent set). Then metal fatigue is followed by breakage, followed by a trip home in 2nd gear. 😟

A picture showing the 2 versions of the springs are shown in the link below.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/20201-re-engineering-the-shift-spring/?do=findComment&comment=272760

 

[footgoose]

4 minutes ago, MartyNZ said:

a trip home in 2nd gear. 😟

2nd gear and close to home if lucky like I was

[Tomchri]

300m from the house downhill. Yes lucky.

Cheers Tom.

[p6x]

18 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Then metal fatigue is followed by breakage, followed by a trip home in 2nd gear. 😟

A picture showing the 2 versions of the springs are shown in the link below.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/20201-re-engineering-the-shift-spring/?do=findComment&comment=272760

 

Got you!

My new spring only has two coils and not three.

I will complete my Texas tour and switch the springs then.

By the way, I did my trip home in 1st gear, because when I got stuck in second gear, I managed to shift down and that was the end of it.

It gave me more time to appreciate the landscape.

[LaGrasta]

I did the Lucky Phil Shift Improvement, and all is well.  

I have no wish to perform this other spring upgrade as it's so involved. I have about 15k on my 2003, am I destined to be forced to do so? As I read through this thread, it seemed it may be so.