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V11 Daytona project


Lucky Phil
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20 minutes ago, Admin Jaap said:

I had the OEM 02 V11LM ECU custom mapped. From what I recall he started out with a standard 1000 Daytona map.

Ok cool thanks for that. Who did your mapping for you if I may ask?

Ciao

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That same shop refurbished (polished) and rebalanced my crankshaft & conrod/piston assembly. Indeed, he is very knowledgeable. They race with Duc's themselves.:race:

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  • 3 weeks later...

So it's been a while since I updated this thread, but I've been doing stuff. Not "Chuck" type doing stuff but chipping away. Firstly I had a very minor oil weep to sort from the head oil feed banjo on the cases and replace the oil pressure switch where the gauge was fitted. The oil feed banjo was a real bastard to do and necessitated making 2 special tools. I hadn't really done it up tight enough due to the head being so close to one part of the cases you couldn't get a ring or socket on it and even an OE spanner had limited movement. Anyway finally sorted that and used my other special tool to re fit the oil pressure switch.

The other issue was of course the fuel tap and I've covered sorting that elsewhere. Its now lovely to use and doesn't leak, hooray. I've got a new one on the way and I'll mod it as well. 

The biggest issue was the mapping and I spent many hours getting up to speed on Guzzidiag including reading every post on the Guzzi.de forum going back 9 years where Paul Daytona and Meinolf and Beard the Wizard behind diag along with Paul live. This is the home of Guzzidiag and there's a ton of info there. I'm amazed that Paul and Beard got the first iteration up and running in a few months, impressive.

With my rudimentary understanding of the system my thoughts were to obtain a .bin file from a Centauro which has a 16M ecu and simply transfer the mapping info into the 15M. Gritman in England you may remember did the same engine swap and kindly sent me his map and I tried that. It didn't run that well and from the fuel map 3D it looked very rich. It ran better than the std V11 map but wasn't ride-able except around the block. I hadn't seen a std Centi map at this point so I had nothing to compare with. At the same time thanks to audiomick one of the mods at Guzzi.de and a fellow Aussie living in Germany I was put in touch to Karsten who also had some Centi .bin files and generously sent them to me. I now also had a couple of enhanced Centi bins to compare. All this is extremely useful if you actually want to learn and see whats safe to do. It gives you known references.

I also had to buy a brand new ECU as the original looks like it had a failed baro sensor. It worked ok but I suspect it had reverted to a default baro setting.

So today I loaded the new bin with the Centi mapping ( which has different load and rpm break points) into the new ecu and fired it up. A little ropey to begin with until I got the balancing and idle sorted and then took it for a ride. Straight away it worked really nicely, only complaint was very minor popping on the overrun. I tweaked the CO up a little from 0 and got that eliminated and it runs and rides like a champ. 

So time to put some miles on it and see whats what.

Big thanks Paul, audiomick and Karsten for the assistance as well as Beard for Guzzidiag and the guys that helped it evolve into what it is today. It's a really good tool and in my case has been totally faultless to use.

Ciao         

 

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Thanks for the update Phil

You make me look an utter dullard (not that hard mind). Amazing work and breadth of knowledge you're posting up here.

Why are you running a 15M out of interest could you not get your hands on a 16M?

Are you planning to do anything regarding the relief valve spring in the future or just let sleeping dogs lie?

Tell me about access to the oil pressure take off, it's a compete Bee-atch

After doing the cam timing check on mine and trying to install a larger oil cooler where the OEM lived on the HiCam I had to admit defeat. A Setrab or Mocal could be installed but the piping was impossible.

I'm now in interation #2 and have relocated the external fuel pump and when the pieces arrive fit the filter (tubing and 2 large P clips). That should free up space between the Alternator cover and front subframe brace. In there I can squeeze a 13 Row Setrab and have sufficient room twixt cooler and sump ports to actually pipe it.

I'll post up a separate thread when its done. Pretty simple stuff but it was driving me nuts.

I'll also let you know when the Will Creedon chip arrives

Please keep this updated it's a gold mine for anybody brave/masochistic enough to venture into the altered reality that is the world of HiCams (Although I still think they are the sexiest lumps Guzzi ever made).

John

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11 minutes ago, pete roper said:

John? If it would be any use I've got a really good low mileage early Stelvio oil cooler gathering dust in the shed if you want a bigger one. Yours for nix if you think it might help.

Hi Pete very generous of you as always and thank you so much, I may take you up on it later.......................I just took a look on the Bay of Fleas and have you seen what people are asking for some of these parts? You're sitting on a gold mine!!!

Right now I need to get the rest of the crap shoehorned into the upper front of the bike to see exactly what's going to fit.

Two of the reasons for considering the Setrab/Mocal route apart from the fact I know they will probably fit are

1) I know another Australia owner who runs a 10 row Mocal with dash 8 piping and reports oil temps on the cool side if anything. That's an earlier bike but has been upgraded to a stage C tune. So it's not a broad sump and has a modified Finkentey Klaumann sump and spacer, for the take off to fit a cooler. It can't be a deep sump though as there's no room on the Australia to install one because of the fairing. I have no idea if it makes any difference or not

2)The Setrab/Mocals have a lot of published data on their cooler performance and the upshot is the bigger the better, within reason. Greater heat rejection and lower pressure loss, if you've got a stat to control it. I don't think Guzzi's coolers have as many rows Vs their physical size and I'm desperately trying to maximize heat rejection through the cooler.

I need to start a seperate thread on this and the oil pressure behaviour to continually stop Lucky Phil's thread going Off Topic.

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14 hours ago, Weegie said:

Thanks for the update Phil

You make me look an utter dullard (not that hard mind). Amazing work and breadth of knowledge you're posting up here.

Why are you running a 15M out of interest could you not get your hands on a 16M?

Are you planning to do anything regarding the relief valve spring in the future or just let sleeping dogs lie?

Tell me about access to the oil pressure take off, it's a compete Bee-atch

After doing the cam timing check on mine and trying to install a larger oil cooler where the OEM lived on the HiCam I had to admit defeat. A Setrab or Mocal could be installed but the piping was impossible.

I'm now in interation #2 and have relocated the external fuel pump and when the pieces arrive fit the filter (tubing and 2 large P clips). That should free up space between the Alternator cover and front subframe brace. In there I can squeeze a 13 Row Setrab and have sufficient room twixt cooler and sump ports to actually pipe it.

I'll post up a separate thread when its done. Pretty simple stuff but it was driving me nuts.

I'll also let you know when the Will Creedon chip arrives

Please keep this updated it's a gold mine for anybody brave/masochistic enough to venture into the altered reality that is the world of HiCams (Although I still think they are the sexiest lumps Guzzi ever made).

John

Thanks john and a dullard you are not. I read your wiring post on the Sfida and was impressed.

The 15M is from my limited knowledge of such thing a very similar electronic architecture to the 16M but is only half the size and has the flash ability so no need to burn chips etc. You can then simply email maps to people and they can download it via Guzzidiag in literally 15 seconds to your bike. Plus you can make changes directly to the mapping on your computer and then load the file to the ecu without burning chips etc.

Once I've got my map fully sorted I'll be able to provide it freely to anyone that does the same project or has a need for the same ecu mapping combination. I've got to check the cold starting first.

The other thing is that the 16M would be difficult to fit dimensionally under the V11 seat. The seat base comes very close to the stuff mounted under it and It keeps all the original wiring and ecu connectors etc. Much neater.

I made a special long socket to deal with the oil pressure switch by welding and machining up 2 sockets. Along was too long and a std was too short so I made one in between. There's an image here somewhere. For the head feed my crank cases were under machined so as I mentioned you couldn't get a thin walled socket on the banjo head and an Open ender also had limited throw so it ended up a little under torqued. I pulled the fuel pump off and tied back the breather hose to achieve some added room and made up an open ended ring spanner and a 3/8 drive socket with the side cut out of it. It's still hard to torque up but it's doable now in situ. I'll post some tool images.

So, the special oil pressure switch socket I made from a 22mm x 1/2 inch drive and a 3/8 drive socket machined and welded together to get the correct length. The other 2 are for the head feed line off the cases banjo. Note the high quality ring spanner I sacrificed ( inherited from someone) the cutout socket was one of my old AF Proto sockets in 11/16 which as a good fit on the banjo. I have no need for AF stuff anymore as I dont work on Boeings or any aircraft for that matter so I sacrifices it instead of one of my decent metric sockets. Still hurt though doing it to a Proto.   

DSC01099.JPG

DSC01097.JPG

I'm leaving the Oil pressure relief for now unless I have an issue or i get bored. 60 psi max is fine and as long as the hot idle is around 10 I'm happy as well.

Keep up the good work John, I'll be interested to see how the cooler turns out.

Ciao 

     

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So I've been working on the mapping for the EFI lately trying to solve a starting issue. The original map worked nicely when the engine had warmed up but it was a bitch to start. I thought the starting was down to setting up the TPS,balance, idle, and CO but turned out not to be the case. 

I was able to source another 3 Centi maps and 1 USA spec Daytona RS map which is basically a Centi map with higher rpm limit. Two of the maps from Karsten in Germany were both enhanced maps and the other Centi map and Daytona map was standard very kindly sent to me from Will Creedon in the US.

These maps were a tremendous help in sorting the starting issue. The original map had the  Centi, Main fuel, offset and ignition maps transferred over to the 15M .bin but the engine temp trim map and start enrichment map left as std V11. Looking at the Centi engine temp trim map it is wildly different from a V11. As an example this is the Difference in percentages between the Centi map and std V11 map for the same engine temperatures. I was starting the engine at around 10 deg C and as you can see the DIFFERENCE at that temp 25% richer for the Centi. This helped the starting a lot and the warmup was quite good.It stumbled a bit when the engine got to around 40 deg and required a little throttle monitoring for about 20 second or so and it rode nicely. To prevent the afore mentioned warmup stumble which was pretty minor I went back in and added some fuel in the 40-65 deg region. Because the Centi and V11 used different temp steps I left the std V11 temp steps and arrived at the new fuel values simply by interpolating them from the Centi map. The bike now warmed up really nicely. Once started the engine settled into a nice 1100 rpm indicated idle and was very nice. Initial hit of the button still needed more work though as i wasn't happy with that so I once again took a look at the start enrichment map.

image.png

Both The Centi and V11 start enrichment maps looked pretty much identical except for the initial 16 seconds of cranking where the Centi is once again significantly different. Below you can see in the extreme RH column where I added fuel for the initial 16 seconds of the start. This is the DELTA map.

image.png

The next thing was ignition advance. the first map had used the std Centi/Daytona ignition timing and that was a lot different from both the Karsten maps. The std was 6 deg of advance at 1000rpm which is what the engine will get at cranking speed but the Karsten map was 21 deg and at the next rpm break point dropped to 12 deg. I decided to up the advance to 16 on the cranking and the engine seemed to like this and the starting was now quite good. Better than I was accustomed to with the V11. Interestingly I have since noticed an 8 valve Grisso uses 21 deg of advance on cranking. The V11 uses 15 deg at cranking. Why the Centi only uses 6 deg I dont know but it seems to like more when cold. As is often the case when doing this kind of thing you can lose yourself a little with various adjustments so I may revisit the timing and see if it had the effect I thought it did or I got a little lost with the fuel mapping and the original timing was was ok.

image.png

The problem with sorting an initial first cranking starting issue is that when the engine doesn't fire up on the first or second cranking attempt then it's hard to understand what the symptoms really are. When the engine is stone cold there is a lot of puddling of fuel in the manifolds and it needs to be very rich to accommodate this. The issue is if it doesn't fire up you end up with too much fuel in the manifold and that becomes an issue. The initial fire up is critical and if it doesn't happen fairly quickly you then don't know reliably what the affect your changes have made except they didn't work. You need to get it started and cleared out and fully warmed up and let it cool down again and try something else. takes a while and can get you a little lost. You are also dealing with 2 different XDF programs for the 16M and 15M which present data in different ways so some transferring maps to excel to compare was necessary. There's probably an easier way to do this in Tunerpro but being a computer Luddite makes it a longer process for me.    

Once again thanks to, Will, audiomick, and Karsten for the Maps and advice.

Ciao   

EDIT.....forgot to mention I put a 50 klm country ride on the bike yesterday and it went very well. Rode and carburatted very nicely indeed.

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  • 3 months later...
On 5/12/2020 at 2:33 AM, Lucky Phil said:

Well here it is out and about today. First ride.I started off trying a std V11 map. Strangely my bike has a very early 1.5M ecu and for some reason doesn't present any baro pressure info. Paul Minnaert seems to recall the early version ecus have something different about their baro sensor. He's going to get back to me when he has access to his info.Hopefully this just means for the moment the baro pressure is set to a default. The other odd thing about my ecu is it's loaded with a 2002 LeMans map. I've owned this bike for 10 years so pre Guzzidiag days so how this has gotten in there I dont know. Any thoughts anyone? Maybe this is why the baro info isnt displayed because that function of the early ecu isnt compatible with the later maps. Hopefully Paul can shed some light.

I reset the CO trim to Zero from -12 and the bike seemed to idle fine on the V11 map. Starting's a bit ropey though. So out I went for a ride around the block. It didnt run that well to be honest, I mean it got me around the block a few times but you wouldn't go out for a ride like that. It did allow me to check the oil pressure though with the temp oil pressure gauge though with the oil a bit warmer and 60 psi @ 2500 rpm at around 52 deg C oil temp on 15W-40 which will be adequate. I believe that figure will turn out to be the relief valve setting. If I feel the need for more pressure I'll go to a 10W-50 but I'm OK with 60psi max.

I came back and decided to load the map Gritman had sent me for his V11/Daytona and see what that was like. Out I went and it was way better, not really great but you could go for a ride at a pinch with this map although truthfully it will need to be a lot better than this. Gritmans bike has pod filters and I'm not sure what crossover so it was never going to be perfect.

The gearbox shifted nicely and the bike went well in all other areas so now its just about the tuning. Hopefully I'll be able to get some help with that.

Now

DSC01090.JPG

Then. How it was when I bought it 10 years ago

~9803062.JPG

 

Ciao 

 

 

 

This still blows my mind. I try telling people about it and it is just beyond description.

Totally blows my mind. :blink:

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39 minutes ago, docc said:

This still blows my mind. I try telling people about it and it is just beyond description.

Totally blows my mind. :blink:

Had it out again yesterday docc after re fitting the rebuilt throttle bodies. Needed a full re set of the balance and airscrews etc. Its going nicely now and no more click,clicking from the r/h throttle body shaft or fuel dripping.

I also re torqued the heads and did the valve clearances after.

Ciao  

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