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2 hours ago, audiomick said:

I reckon the bloke who parked his Airbus on the Hudson a few years back was one of the "have both" category. I rather hope that there is one of those in the cockpit when I am on a commercial flight. :)

Touché.  


And about to board my flight (as a passenger) momentarily from Anchorage!  In truth, Alaska airlines still has some decent pilot standards, and a lot of good pilots (and a few hosers, but no person or company can get it all perfect all the time). 

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On 6/16/2024 at 7:05 PM, docc said:

Well, once "betting" enters the equation, all matters of "sport" are off . . .

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Choose the right road, you can do all three at once.

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23 hours ago, audiomick said:

I reckon the bloke who parked his Airbus on the Hudson a few years back was one of the "have both" category. I rather hope that there is one of those in the cockpit when I am on a commercial flight. :)

Although not a pilot I've spent hundreds of hours in the 3rd seat of commercial jets with commercial pilots and even a few test flights out of Seattle with the Boeing test pilots on pre delivery flight tests. The stick and rudder and instrument flying stuff is a given but what separates them is three things in my mind. As a pilot you must have a profound sense of personal responsibility and be highly disciplined. Add to that the ability to be cool in a crisis a lot of which comes from repetitive training in crisis situations which private pilots don't get. Commercial pilots for large companies get put through the Sim wringer every 4 months or so and need to pass that test. An ability to know when the rule book no longer applies is also an advantage such as when you have a cockpit fire you don't fly around dumping fuel to hit you max landing weight target you just get it on the ground and hang the structural stress issues.     

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20 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

An ability to know when the rule book no longer applies is also an advantage...

Yes, indeed. That even applies to my job to an extent. When the shit really hits the fan, the audience is in its seats, and it's time for the show, it has to work. After a given point, to a large degree it really doesn't matter what you have to do to achieve that.

But in my job, there are no lives in danger if it doesn't happen. I have the utmost respect for pilots who can keep their shit together in extreme situations, because in their job, it really does matter. :)

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1 hour ago, audiomick said:

Yes, indeed. That even applies to my job to an extent. When the shit really hits the fan, the audience is in its seats, and it's time for the show, it has to work. After a given point, to a large degree it really doesn't matter what you have to do to achieve that.

But in my job, there are no lives in danger if it doesn't happen. I have the utmost respect for pilots who can keep their shit together in extreme situations, because in their job, it really does matter. :)

That Potomac river ditching was not only a great piece of flying but also decision making. Very cool head. Almost as cool as Neil Armstrongs moon landing with warnings going off repeatedly and fuel critical. If you look at Armstrongs flying career before the moon landing it's littered with exceptional flying decisions made under the pump such as flying a B29 to drop an X15 and the 29 got a runaway prop. Exceptional pilot and human being was Armstrong. I recommend his Biography "first man" the film doesn't do him justice really.  

 

Phil

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On 6/19/2024 at 9:29 AM, Gmc28 said:

 

to complicate it more, there are the very distinctly different skill sets involved:  “stick and rudder” skills, akin to riding skills, and then there’s  “instrument flying/competence skillset”, which is more like a video game skill set.  Different parts of the brain.  Bush pilots need stick and rudder skills, airline pilots just need the instrument skills, but the best pilots have both.  I’ve come across plenty of airline pilots who were truly horrible pilots, but survived with the instrument skills and in an airline environment designed wisely over the decades to minimize risk via lots of amazing systems.

 Oh, and the final major issue is ego…. Male pride is the most common issue,

Home run...

I was training night driving with FLIR- the screen was 14"x16", a little too close to the driver's face and above head level. Sucked to drive with. The guys who could drive all, every one, suffered driving 'on-screen' as it was pitch black outside. Some simply could not get certified. There was a young girl, though, from NYC somewhere who had never driven anything before enlisting in the Army. Of course, they put her in a logistics battalion as a truck driver... and so since she was airbrake certified she got tagged to drive our truck. She wasn't a good driver in the daytime, had no sense of direction or sense of speed or inertia. She crawled through every obstacle slowly and fearfully, but did manage to pass. Of course, all the guys were either 'coaching' her condescendingly, or teasing her, and jerking each other off about who was fastest.
At night, though, when the lights went out, she was a freakin' werewolf. As soon as it was full dark and she could only see the video screen, she set a course record for her battalion. At night. Over 12 foot hills and 12 foot deep trenches with blind corners, around off-camber turns. We were all so stunned we could only laugh. And every one of us learned something from that.

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13 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

Home run...

I was training night driving with FLIR- the screen was 14"x16", a little too close to the driver's face and above head level. Sucked to drive with. The guys who could drive all, every one, suffered driving 'on-screen' as it was pitch black outside. Some simply could not get certified. There was a young girl, though, from NYC somewhere who had never driven anything before enlisting in the Army. Of course, they put her in a logistics battalion as a truck driver... and so since she was airbrake certified she got tagged to drive our truck. She wasn't a good driver in the daytime, had no sense of direction or sense of speed or inertia. She crawled through every obstacle slowly and fearfully, but did manage to pass. Of course, all the guys were either 'coaching' her condescendingly, or teasing her, and jerking each other off about who was fastest.
At night, though, when the lights went out, she was a freakin' werewolf. As soon as it was full dark and she could only see the video screen, she set a course record for her battalion. At night. Over 12 foot hills and 12 foot deep trenches with blind corners, around off-camber turns. We were all so stunned we could only laugh. And every one of us learned something from that.

Yep, depends on the persons individual “gifts” or shortcomings.

i found out the hard way that the old adage “don’t judge a book by its cover” certainly applies to pilots.  Folks that had all the right ingredients on paper or via interview, migjt be the ones that didn’t have the ability/gift of good snap decision making.  While a certain element of luck is often involved, making the best of what you’ve got is the key when the turds hit the fan.  As Phil noted, sod the rules when necessary and do what u gotta do.

You can train a monkey to eventually survive the required sim training experience commercial pilots have to deal with 1-2 times per year, with enough repetition, but you can’t impart or train the gift of “good natural instinct” or experience (which are different, but have similar end-results).  

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I'm baaaack. :D I've been in SoCal playing motorcycle visiting kids/grand kids.

there is more than one way to get above the clouds.

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No, I didn't look at the video. I never look at airplane crash videos, motorcycle crash videos, etc. I *assume* she was clueless. There are some people that should never take up hobbies/occupations that can kill ya.

"Flying itself is not particularly dangerous.. but it is terribly intolerant of any carelessness or incapacity. "

"Fly the airplane, Chuck. Don't let it fly you.." has stuck with me over all these years, along with "see those trees at the end of the runway? If you have an engine out at the worst possible time, you'd better hit them under control. Trying to stretch your glide will get you killed."

Thanks, Tommy. You've saved my bacon a couple of times over the years..:thumbsup:

 

Edited by Chuck
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