Soft valve stems & plasticine guides?

[Guest ratchethack]

I'd like to request some input from some o' you knowledgeable guys who've been on the inside of the V11 cylinder heads, specifically the 2000 Sports - or at least close to this year. I've not yet had occasion to have mine off.

 

At 30K miles now, I'm nervous about some of the alarming posts, however infrequent, re: poor grade materials of the valve stems and guides that have evidently shown up as excessive wear on earlier V11 models, which could presumably include my 2000 Sport.

 

I told myself I'd do a heads-off inspection this summer, and now I've run m'self out of calendar. But the thing just runs so perfectly, now I'm hesitant to fix wot ain't broke.

 

If I could substantially delay a future re-grind of valve seats by dropping in superior grade valves, and K-line the guides at the same time, I figure this might save me more grief down the road and at least be worth the effort of a little heads-off inspection excursion.

 

So I'm on the fence. Last time I was in this nearly identical situation was way back in the days of pushrod motors. It was with a A65 BSA. I tried to cheat by doing a "quickie" guide inspection from inside the rocker box, but couldn't see a damned thing without taking the head off and valves out. Then I wound up doing a complete top-end job including seats and a valve regrind, mostly because it was so easy to do with the head already off.

 

Any thoughts?

 

TIA

[dlaing]

I have been procrastinating on this inconvenient truth.

What will happen if you just wait till doomsday?

Will you just get puffs of blue smoke as a warning sign, or will you need new heads?

How much do new heads cost?

Or maybe the fear is overblown?

Perhaps it is Mike Rich's conspiracy to get rich quick

But his name is already Rich and he is slow to get work done, so I don't think it is a get rich quick scheme.

I think we better get it done...

But I don't want to rip off my heads and send them away for weeks

But getting him to port the heads could also be a benefit.

Maybe we should keep our eyes open for heads on eBay to help reduce down time?

Or we could have them done locally, but I don't know who will provide valves that meet Mike Rich's specs.

Another concern at 30,000 plus miles is the cam chain.

Any thoughts on that?

[Guest ratchethack]

Dave, I can get a valve & seat regrind to my specs and K-lined guides locally on a max. 2-day turnaround, as needed. It's not a concern. I always hand-lap new or re-ground valves myself following the traditional 2-stage process.

 

Depending on how they look, I may do a mild cleanup of the ports myself, having done this many many times. From what I've heard, the ports and manifolds aren't too bad from the Mandello works. I will NOT be considering anything resembling fancy porting work, as I have absolutely no needs for this whatsoever.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[guzzista]

As someone who has had to take stuff apart because of actual wear, often under the gun of " to keep the costs down and hurry the f**k up" fron customers on their cars, I have learned the joy of leaving well enough alone, however, in the words of the great Sonny Angel (who, I am sure is well known in your parts).. quote>. If it doesnt smoke, compression is good , why mess with it?

[Dan M]

As someone who has had to take stuff apart because of actual wear, often under the gun of " to keep the costs down and hurry the f**k up" fron customers on their cars, I have learned the joy of leaving well enough alone, however, in the words of the great Sonny Angel (who, I am sure is well known in your parts).. quote>. If it doesnt smoke, compression is good , why mess with it?

 

 

Like he said. I've been in the auto repair business for near 30 years. Unless you feel the need to upgrade, taking an engine to pieces that shows no symptoms is silly. There have been posts about cams & big end bearings too. Why stop with the heads?

[dlaing]

Where?

and what would you specify?

Stainless steel valves?

30 or 45 degree cut?

multiangle cut?

What is best for durability?

Would you specify a certain durometer rating for the valve stem hardness?

If you get new valve guides would you have them chamfered to reduce wear?

Would one chamfer K-lining?

 

Maybe this is not as big a deal as I feared, but I have not known how to proceed, other than sending to Mike Rich...or FBF.

I guess I could talk to Sonny Angel.

Thanks for any assistance

[dlaing]

Like he said. I've been in the auto repair business for near 30 years. Unless you feel the need to upgrade, taking an engine to pieces that shows no symptoms is silly. There have been posts about cams & big end bearings too. Why stop with the heads?

I suspect it is a matter of weighing the cost of preventative measures vs. the risk weighted cost of catastrophy.

The preventative cost, I would assume is below $300, while the cost of running to the point of head damage or worse is much higher, but the risk is unknown.

But there have been a few posts, mostly relative to Mike Rich, that indicate a major looming problem.

The bearings and maybe the cams could have the preventative improvement of a windage plate.

Apparently people are lining up for them.

 

 

As someone who has had to take stuff apart because of actual wear, often under the gun of " to keep the costs down and hurry the f**k up" fron customers on their cars, I have learned the joy of leaving well enough alone, however, in the words of the great Sonny Angel (who, I am sure is well known in your parts).. quote>. If it doesnt smoke, compression is good , why mess with it?

Funny, before reading your post I started typing, but edited out:

"Maybe I should take it to my guzzi dealer and tell them to change the valves and if necessary K-line the guides, but I'll bet they'll just say, "why?""

And of course Sonny is my dealer.

[Guest Nogbad]

Oh fer feck's sake!

 

Leave it alone Hatchet! If you want to fettle, buy a classic and fettle that whilst USING the V11. Don't open up a perfectly functional engine!

 

If there was a material spec problem it's likely to have reared its ugly head before now.

 

You already acknowledge the fact you have guzzichondria in the title of your post too. Just to remind you, guzzichondria is a psychological condition where Guzzi riders imagine that they have serious existing or impending mechanical mayhem, when in reality their bike is perfectly healthy.

[luhbo]

These stories are the same bullshit as those old "Guzzis don't stand unleaded" business ideas.

 

Our self-made Mr.Guzzi from DynoTec, the one who was saying Guzzi valves wouldn't be rotating because the Italians are to stupid to design proper cams, this fellow claimed for years that Guzzis can't be run leadless. Fortunately he had the best solution available to help his customers. Now that even the most naive noob has seen that this is nonsense he had the next idea. The valve seats are ok, but the valves are soft as butter. Guess what, he can help you! He's now selling special carbon treated thingies to further help his customers. I'm curious which what ideas he and others of this business will show up next.

 

KR Green 1999/2000: actually 62000 km, valves adjusted once a year, engine/drive-train no recall, still working fine !

[Guest Nogbad]

[Guest ratchethack]

You already acknowledge the fact you have guzzichondria in the title of your post too. Just to remind you, guzzichondria is a psychological condition where Guzzi riders imagine that they have serious existing or impending mechanical mayhem, when in reality their bike is perfectly healthy.

Ah, the perspective of he who advocates "sweating y'er assets" with neglect. Just to remind YOU, my dearest Nogglekommander -- Among other items of neglect, you've been an advocate of ignoring the infamous cush drive collar designed for grease, yet dry from the factory, and a proud alumnus of the "No Reason Whatsoever to Change Fork Oil to Schedule" school of thought, as I recall. Y'er cush drive collar is still happily out of sight and out of mind, I presume?? I wonder how much brown grinding compound you've accumulated in there by now -- particularly in your climate -- and how much damage its done by opening up that dry, steel-on-steel hub clearance? How about those equally dry-from-the-factory shaft and hub splines, shift lever pivot, shock eyes, etc.?? Things getting a little rattly, are they?? Still haven't found any reason to change fork oil??

 

Well, I reckon as long as y'er just using the Guzzi as a wind anchor for the shed whilst out riding the Buell, it doesn't need any maintenance at all. However, I ride mine nearly every day. At 30K miles, which is typically past the point where many (if not most) have lost interest and sold off their bikes (many of 'em having not had any maintenance whatsoever beyond possibly an oil change or 2), even though I also get a fair amount of miles on my other moto, I'm just getting started on my Guzzi. I plan to ride it as long as I can wobble it around the local mountain roads. . . . .

 

So I reckon I must be right on track here. After all, you've declared that following the factory maintenance schedule amounts to "extreme guzzichondria"!

 

So not only am I happy to be a Guzzichondriac, dearest Nog -- on the Nogglekommander scale of Guzzichondria, I'm more'n pleased to be an extreme Guzzichondriac! Doing a fair amount of preventive maintenance on a regular basis on items not even listed in the maintenance schedule , I might even be considered to be entirely off the scale!

 

How about extreme, acute, chronic, and morbid Guzzichondria?!?!

 

Heaven forefend! Guilty as charged! You'll be swingin' me from the gallows under the great arch at Mandello!

 

In my opening post, however, when it comes to meddling with cylinder heads, you may've noticed that I'm more'n hesitant to "fix wot ain't broke."

 

You may've also noticed in my inquiry that I directly solicited knowledgeable Guzzisti who have actually been inside the heads of a 2000 Sport. I was hoping that someone who may have actually FOUND premature excessive guide and/or valve stem wear, as has been reported on several occasions, and/or possibly found and implemented more durable components might chime in.

[Dan M]

I suspect it is a matter of weighing the cost of preventative measures vs. the risk weighted cost of catastrophy.

The preventative cost, I would assume is below $300, while the cost of running to the point of head damage or worse is much higher, but the risk is unknown.

 

It appears you guys are in tune to what's going on with your engines. It is more than likely that there will be some symptoms for awhile before "catastrophic head damage" occurs. If your valves / guides are turning to mush as we type, you're going to notice things like low compression, oil consumption, lean backfires, valves that won't hold adjustment and t-bodys that are always out of sync. Typically when you take something apart and everything has gone to crap, the operator has ignored the obvious for some time. Doesn't sound like either of you to me.

[big J]

Is there any actual evidence of multiple valve guide and stem wear problems.I've only seen one or two posted up,which would indicate to me that it's possibly just a dodgy batch rather than an endemic failure of all early cyl head components.

If there is a known problem with valves and guides,maybe the guys who professionally repair V11's could share their experiences?

I dont like the idea of spreading innuendo like this.

Ratchethack,do you have any indications that your valves are becoming unserviceable?

[jtucker]

A friend of mine recently had his valves go all pear-shaped on a '97 Sporti. Nothing catastrophic, but he had problems with it running poorly for some time, regardless of what tuning he did. And yes... Mike Rich did the repairs for him.

 

__Jason

[Guest ratchethack]

If there is a known problem with valves and guides,maybe the guys who professionally repair V11's could share their experiences?

Big J, if you pay attention to my leading post, this is the question I've asked. I am most certainly NOT attempting to spread innuendo here. If you please, I'm asking for evidence for the concern that has been raised by others.

Ratchethack,do you have any indications that your valves are becoming unserviceable?

I have no symptoms of any early wear. If I did, I'd have investigated it myself with an inspection by now. If there's solid enough evidence from the experience of others, I would wish to do an intervention before too much damage has occurred.

 

I've simply repeated myself here. Have I been misleading in some way?