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Many thanks again audiomick…I was hoping someone would say on the wiring diagram 1 and 3 look to be reversed…! nothing was making sense if green/grey were for high beam with only a high beam light on the dash! Yes, good tip…..will label the wires to each relay when swapping/replacing and let you guys know more in a few hours…

And another thing. This is all very hypothetical, so don't just take it as granted. Getting back to the two green wires, one on battery plus and one on battery minus. Given that it seems that whoever did the mods to the wiring did it all fairly conventionally, it remains a mystery why one green wire is plus, and the other is minus. According to convention (as I know it...) green is usually used for "earth" (or yellow/green). Assuming the man was following convention, that would indicate that both green wires should be on the minus pole of the battery. So if we assume that the green wires on the battery are the same green wires on the relays, and that they are connected to 85/86 on the relays, and that the green wire on battery plus is actually intended to be the "earth" for the switching side of the relay that should be switching on the low beam, i.e. the way back to the battery from the green/grey wire on the relay, and therefore should actually be on battery minus then, when the ignition is on and the light switch is on "low beam", the switching side of the relay will be "seeing" 12V at both ends of the coil (because the green wire is on plus instead of minus), and therefore wont pull in and switch on the low beam. If we further assume that there is a really grotty connection somewhere along the path of the green/grey wire up to the relay, then it might be possible that enough current leak is happening (from the connector to the frame or engine/gearbox case, somwhow) to pull in the relay when the ignition is off and activate the relay and turn on the low beam. (12 V through the green wire from battery plus to the switching side of the relay, and back to the battery through the shitty connection, somehow) As I said, pure speculation, but maybe the relay is ok (test it as described above) and you have one or several bad (really dirty) connections. Which brings us back to the point, regardless of how the relay checks out: check and clean all the connections. And trace all the wires back and make a diagramm. And don't just swap wires around on spec. Follow the wires and understand what is supposed to be happening first. Shorting the battery is not a good idea.

Ok, I've had another look at the wiring diagram, and I think it contradicts itself. Obviously, the cryptic letters next to the wires in the diagram are the abbreviation of the colours of the wires in Italian. With the help of deepl.com, this is what I get by following the wires, and referring to the numbers next to the headlight symbols and the legend. But: you wrote and the wiring diagram shows that the brown wire also feeds a tell-tale in the dashboard. That must be the high-beam indicator. There isn't a light on the dash showing that low-beam is on. and the wiring diagram shows that the "Lo" position of the headlight switch feeds the green/grey wire, and the "High" position and the "Pass" switch the brown wire So I think you are on the right track, and that the legend of the wiring diagram is wrong. The "1" and the "3" next to the symbols for the headlight are apparently swapped. The brown wire originally fed power to the high-beam, the green/grey to the low beam. That whoever did the modification used the original power feed for the lights to switch a relay that feeds through power directly from the battery is fairly standard practice, I gather. So, it sounds like you might just have a broken relay. Change the relay that the green/grey wire is going through. Or better still, swap the relays and see if the low-beam then works, and the high beam doesn't. Put a label on all the wires before you unplug anything!!! If the low beam works with the relay from the high beam, then you know for sure that the relay is the problem. I still can't figure out why the low beam goes on with the ignition off, but maybe the relay has just shit itself in a major fashion and is doing weird stuff.

You guys are unbelievably knowledgeable on these electrical matters…! Having a look this morning at your responses and the bike….hopefully answering a couple of your questions… Low beam and front brake were not working when bike arrived. Maybe disturbed on long truck/train interstate journey as the bike was on the road in November last year.. Front brake micro switch replaced…problem solved. Low beam issue…there are 2 extra headlight shell mounted relays, both Bosch 0332019150. With reference to the terrific colour chart by audiomick earlier in this topic, the Green/grey wire from headlight connector travels through a relay where power confirmed going in but not out. The brown wire travels through the other relay which I originally thought was to improve starting. Now I am convinced that this relay is for high beam. Today I will reconfirm power in/out but in any event there is no problem with high beam. Unless you guys think otherwise, I will order 2 Bosch relays. And from digikey a batch of new underseat relays. Agree that previous owner(s) of this Tenni likely made a fair effort to improve/repair. And I won’t undo their endeavours in a rash manner…. Have a few weeks until the Tenni’s (repaired) tachometer arrives from Germany. If I can fix low beam in the interim - the bike can at least go back on the road…. Regards, tennitragic

Another thought: what if the two relays on the headlight shell, presumably one for high and one for low beam, are different, and the low beam one has the load (low beam) connected a "normally closed" instead of a "normally open"? That would do it, I think. However, looking closely at the photos, it seems likely that they are both the same type. Which leads me to a further thought: In this photo, we can see two green wires coming from the battery, one from plus, and one from minus and in this one, assuming the two relays are the same type and mounted the same way around (it looks like they are), on both of them a green wire on the same terminal of each. So what's going on there? Going by the diagram that @Weegie posted further up, that might be 85 or 86, in which case it might not be relevant (works both ways, assuming there is no diode in there), but it seems odd to me. Or at least sloppy.

The D 10 Cat dozer was one example . 85 & 86 had opposite tasks than normal and I was up on top of that dozer for 6 hrs trying to fix the condenser fans .

You ought to be the dumba$$ that finds these things out !

@docc very good question. What occurs to me is that possibly one or more of the myriad spade connectors has landed on the wrong terminal. To be honest, I can't easily imagine what could go wrong inside the ignition switch to cause the described effect, but who knows. I'm not saying it is impossible. A couple of questions for @Tennitragic, because I can't recall you having commented on these points: Was the problem there when you bought the bike, or did it just turn up out of nowhere when everything had previously worked, or did you do some work on the bike after which the problem turned up? If it is the case that the problem turned up after you worked on something, what did you do exactly? Once again, I'm more and more of the opinion that the solution is only going to become clear when all the "custom" wiring has been traced back to see what has been done, and how it is all intended to work.

Regardless of the relays, how could the low beam come on with the Ignition switch "off" unless the switch were faulty?

Yes, that would work of course. The two pins are simply the two ends of the switch. The main argument for sticking to the convention in that case is so that the next person who works on it knows without checking which wire is hot.

I think I have crossed this path before w/this style of relay , IDK . My memory is good or bad or both . IDK what the wiring diagram is on the application . I could blabber a little better then. In Europe this is in concrete . I was composing / making some drawings to make things absolute. Guess what , sometimes 85 & 86 are opposite , where 85 is switched b+ and 86 is - they can be changed to 85 - and 86 is switched b+ . Keep in mind a diode in the relay might not like this. Same with 30 and 87 . Instead of 30 being b+ and 87 is the load , 87 is the b+ and 30 becomes the load. This source of the diagram I referred to is from a Ford wiring diagram ca. 1999-2000 F-series electrical manual. Here , everything is a case by case situation. Like the Cat dozer I was telling about earlier.

Yes. @Tennitragic perhaps it might help to not lose sight of this thought: The circuit may look complex on the wiring diagram, and in fact practicality determines that there are connections between wires that don't always immediately make sense, but The circuit always can be reduced to nothing more than a feed from the power source (battery plus), a load, and a line back to the "other side" of the power source (battery minus). There is nearly always a switch in there too, which can be on the way from battery plus to the load, or on the way back from the load to battery minus. One case, for instance, of a circuit without a switch is a particular pin on the ECU that gets permanent 12V from the battery, which is why the battery goes flat if the bike isn't ridden for several weeks. The confusing connections on the wiring diagram are generally nothing more than common feeds of battery plus to various parts of the loom, and common "earth connections", i.e. back to battery minus. Bear that in mind, and the wiring diagram will make sense.

No, 30 is always the feed in direct from battery plus, whether it is a relay or some other component. The numbers were first defined in a DIN, of course. Very German thing to do... It is not as confusing as it appears at first glance. The numbers are more or less arbitrary, there is no particular system that I can identify other than that numbers that were established in the same "run" are often sequential, like the 85, 86, 87 on relays. The only point of it all is to have a number on the pin that is standarised, so that everyone knows what the pin is for without having to open the component and have a look inside. I just found a listing in English: https://automotive.wiki/index.php/Terminal_Designation EDIT: bugger, I've just noticed the list isn't complete. 2nd Edit: Wiki to the rescue! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552 and just for the hell of it, in German... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klemmenbezeichnung#Liste_der_Klemmenbezeichnungen_in_Kfz_und_ihrer_Bedeutung

No problem & must admit it's unusual to see a relay with 2 normally open contacts and I've never came across it before The normal method to indicate a normally closed contact is on the other side of the switch with 30 being the common, standard nomenclature is 87a to denote a normally closed contact So I did a bit of googling I think the relay is a 332 018 150 Here is a diagram from a 332 019 150, it clearly has 2 normally open contacts https://alvadi.md/en/item/bosch-0-332-019-150

I should have looked THOROUGHLY before I rambled on. Yes this does have a relay that turns on both 87 terminals when turned on . to power both terminals . Be careful when replacing this to use THIS style only . IDK if this has a part # on the relay or in the paperwork ? Ya learn something new every day .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256790435383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=z2laZvJuS16&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=z2laZvJuS16&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

This is the image, albeit inverted, with the printed diagram showing two 87 terminals. A later image reveals there are two of these relays added, likely identical (?) . . .

We must be looking at different pictures The two pictures I looked at clearly had 2x 87 terminals, the diagram on the relay also showed a common bar between them. Indicating normally open and commoned together I can see neither a normally closed terminal on the relay schematic (printed onto the side of the relay) nor 87a printed on nomenclature on the Bosch relay I'm starting to doubt my sanity I'll get ma coat

The relays that are identified in the pic have 30 85 86 87 & 87a on the terminals . Wired normally 30 is b+ and 87 goes to the load .87a is the terminal that the power goes to when the relay is not energized . Terminal 86 is ground and terminal 85 is the switch power to turn on the relay. This is in most cases I have seen terminal 87 have b+ and 30 go to the load. Also 86 and 85 can be reversed. Why these are reversed on these terminals , IDK . Read / understand your wiring diagram(s). I spent 3hrs on top of a D-10 diagnosing a problem because my dim supervisor wasn't smart enough to print a wiring diagram for me. Now for the lesson . Some relays have a diode or resistor in parallel w/the coil in terminals 85 & 86 . The diode is polarity sensitive , the resistor is not. The diode is there for when the magnetic field collapses and sends the voltage spike to ground . This v spike can be up to 50v . As you know ,you do not need this much v going back into your sensitive PCM . Why 30 & 87 are reversed , IDK ? Same as 85 & 86 . W/all this being said , get familiar w/ DC , wiring diagrams and the trinkets you add on . BTW , get rid if the bullet connectors. Spade terminals for them and put connector grease in them. The relay connection , install a proper relay connector that you can plug the relay into. You pulling these off one at a time in the dark w/it raining might become difficult. Buy good stuff and do a professional job . If you had a watercraft or aircraft , you would NOT want Cooter going to WalMart and putting parts on your stuff .

Looks like the experts have entered the room, so time for me to leave I noticed these relay(s) were a bit different to standard types having 2 "87" terminals i.e. 2 normally open switches (one source (30) powering 2 circuits 2x (87) when the relay is energised), just saying. Regarding the battery, in order to reduce the number of ring terminals at the battery, additional terminals and wiring could be relocated to the starter, making it a little neater

Just a quick reply to po18guy…Checked SSB Battery which has CCA 290. And thanks for the tip that the battery should lie flat/terminals to the rear. Upright the seat pan is slightly crushing the wiring. Other welcome answers above I will take a squiz tomorrow….

That battery. I know it is the compact anrdor lightweight lithium, but what is the rating in CCA? If not somewhere north of 200CCA, it might not have the reserve power you need. Normally the batts lie down, terminals to the rear.

Yes, it is. The "upside down" was only referring to one of the photos further up. The things in the photo weren't upside down, but the photo itself is.

Indeed, that should be done. There has, apparently, been some extensive and maybe "creative" mods done to the wiring. The photo of the battery makes it obvious. Interesting, that there is a green wire coming from both the + and the - terminal. I would have tried to keep the colours seperated. Anyway, what has been done doesn't have to be bodged. It might make sense, or it might not. The thing is, I can't imagine that a previous owner took the trouble to make all the changes an not have had it working. So your problem is most likely the same as if it were all original: it used to work, and now something is broken. Most likely either a bad connection somewhere, or several, or/and one of the relays is not doing its thing. Which brings us back to the multimeter. Follow the volts from the plus side of the battery, measure the resistance back to the minus ("earth") side, and make sure that components that should be switching something really are doing that, i.e. measure Ohms across the switch contact, activate the switch, and see if the circuit is being closed. PS: write it all down as you go. When you have a record of the modifications, and when you have it all working again, you can go back an think about whether the mods are all sensible, or whether you want to change something. Like I said, it might all make sense.

That really does not look like a bad attempt at adding headlight relays. This was not about starting, but taking load off the substandard relays the early V11 were delivered with along with numerous marginal attempts to fit actual High Current micro relays. Problem since solved. It is likely one of those added relays is low beam and the other is high (easy to verify). It is *possible* one the added relays is for the start circuit, but also fairly easy to see if any of that wiring is on the "start" side, not lights. Those "packs of poo tickets" would certainly benefit from a thorough cleaning, treatment (DeOxit?), and tightening. Curious how that, alone might affect the behavior . . .