ColdandWet
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Posts posted by ColdandWet
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Problem solved! After having issues and replacing the starter, added a new battery, cleaned all the ground terminals, added 5 new 5 pin OMRON relays (courtesy of the very fine Doc), the final fix that resolved my starter woes was adding a new relay. (Not OMRON, LOL)
Roy offers a very simple drawing on how to add this relay. And it really only took about 25 minutes.
Thanks to everyone offering their input!
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Lord Tundering Jesus, my bike now starts like a normal persons bike. I really can’t beleive it.
Thanks Doc, thank you Roy, very well done! The only thing next for my bike to do is burn to the ground but I double checked and my bike is properly grounded at the back of the gearbox and not the rear seat lock!
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Step 1 So I run the old trigger wire to terminal 85 on the relay. And then 86 goes to a good ground.
step 2 Run a new lead from terminal 87 on the new relay to the spade connecter on the starter motor solenoid.
step 3 and it’s just confusion, terminal 30 on the new relay (14-16 gauge wire) goes to the...........(I’m confused by the image, if it is either the positive terminal on the battery or the large terminal post on the starter that the new lead goes to).
thanks!
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I have added a new oddesy battery, brand brand new starter, five newer relays courtesy of the great “Doc”
I have conversed previously with Roy and have to give him a hat tip for all his electrical and mechanical prowess. I’m definitely going to need a visual on what the actual wiring looks like on the bike. I’m very much interested in applying a new relay to my 2004. I am tired of the dreaded click. It used to be that my starter needed a little top with a hammer but now it’s a whole new ball of wax.
thank you for the wiring diagram Roy, anyone monitoring this topic have this added relay to their younger v11s? I love to see some actual pictures.
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https://www.findchips.com/search/G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12
For those who use this type of relay here’s a master link that will send you to numerous suppliers of the coveted relay.
If it doesn’t format properly when you click the URL insert this product number
G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12
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On 9/10/2020 at 3:37 PM, jtucker said:
I do believe that in this scenario, the clutch switch is necessary - so do try that.
If it still doesn't work, then I'm with docc in suspecting either the ignition (key) switch, or the wiring in between that and the pin 30 on the starter relay. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (my earlier bike is different) but I think there may be a splice somewhere off the ignition "on" circuit and the starter relay, as that circuit does more than simply power the starter relay. If so, that splice point could be faulty as well. There may even be more than one splice point... that path seems to take a meandering route.
__Jason
Sorry I’ve been absent for a day. I’m gonna have to take a look on the wiring diagram to see how to inspect the clutch switch. Doc the relays are on their way. also thank you for advice I will take the tank off again and get things inspected on that side of the bike.
What I can say from just a recent test I did just now when I jump from 30 to 87 it’s still a very weak start but now the bike is starting up but it’s very weak even when I press the start button with a fully charged battery it doesnit exactly jump to life it does sound a little bit weak so possibly a connection from the start button all the way along the side of the bike could have a bad connection? Sorry this message is short it’s getting late I’ve got a run home quick.
It might be worth reporting back once I have the relays. I’m also about to order the hicap Power and ground cables from Gutsbits.
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No luck. As it turned out my battery did need to be replaced. So, PC545 is all topped up and we still have no luck. I use two methods to start the bike, however I’ll start fresh with my situation.
Ignition is armed, neutral light is on, kickstand sensor is disabled, when I clock the starter the lights dim slightly, and the relay clicks, I don’t hold it long cause I don’t want to blow that fuse.
I have a new starter, brand new battery, I have brushed clean all the contacts from each ground wire to the batter including the earth wire to the back of the gearbox. Power wire is as clean as a whistle. Power very clearly does get to the starter cause I can hot wire the bike two superset ways which are still pretty much the same. One mentioned here by running a wire from the solenoid blade to the positive terminal on the starter, that works fantastic. Roars to life.
the second I’ll quote from KiwiRoy
Remove the start relay and poke a wire into 30 and 87 this should make the bike crank (so make sure it's in neutral or on the center stand) If it cranks this will eliminate the starter and solenoid from suspicion. This did not work or do anything g whatsoever however thinking about it now I did not have my clutch in at the time I might have to try that again to see if that was necessary to engage the clutch.
Pin layout
---- 30
---- 87
| | | 85, 87a. 86
Later bikes power the 30 terminal through the ignition switch and fuse 4 (a mistake IMHO)
Try poking the wire into 87 then touch the other end onto battery Positive (+) terminal. This makes my bike ROAR TO GOOD LIFE which I suspect confirms the quality of the connection from that lead that connects to 87 On the really to the solenoid blade is top notch.
The 87 socket goes directly to the trigger terminal of the starter solenoid, check it's got a good connection down there.i’ve swapped all of the relays around. I have new omrons on the way. I will say one thing after hotwiring my bike I noticed right after I shut it off I tried to start it back on again you could almost feel the starter trying to engage once or twice and then after a third click of the starter button it wouldn’t work. In fact after hotwiring a couple times after shutting it down I was able to start it up again right away but only once. I started it up again shut it down and I haven’t been able to replicate restarting it using the starter button but it does feel like.I can imagine maybe one or two relays being trouble but all of them it’s very strange. Either way I’ll keep plugging away at it. -
While I was out today I just happen to see a Magnacharge was in my town I didn’t realize. Picked up a new PC 545 odyssey battery, playing a round of golf while they give the new battery a bit of a boost. Will report back.
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Looking deeper it seems I should be able to run lead right from the solenoid to number 87 on the relay if I can do that in some slick way at least that would rule out any bad connection on that lead at least which I suspect. If that doesn’t work I’m really lost at what to do next. We’ll find out tomorrow when I check the battery though.
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On 9/8/2020 at 7:04 PM, Lucky Phil said:
Ok that is the neutral switch wire. My suggestion was simply a check. I dont even know what the effect would be if the neutral wire was hooked to the starter, probably nothing but its one of those things you just ensure is correct almost unconsciously when you have an issue.
The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.
Ciao
“The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.‘’
I’m curious if you recall which particular prong that power comes from on the relay. I have Keewee Roy’s map of which prong roughly you use to troubleshoot a starter... but I’m not sure how I could use it to my benefit. If I could create a connection direct from the relay blade right to the blade on the solenoid I could rule out or not if that wire was damaged somehow.Thank you.
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11 minutes ago, jtucker said:
They are out-of-production currently, but are in-stock here:
https://www.onlinecomponents.com/omron-electronics/g8he1c7trdc12-42670683.html(I just had a batch of them delivered to me yesterday)
__Jason
No sooner did I find them I came back here to report my findings and here you are. Thanks! Cause of the lack of picture I confirmed the ITN number and product number off an personal ad that was posted not long ago about Omron relays for sale.. The bag of relays had the website which I followed too.
time to order 10!
Would like to get the bike running with any one of my current relays however hot wiring my bike will be good enough for the next day or to so I can head over to a friends and get a multi meter and some advice.
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Doc, it appears the Omrons are obsolete or unavailable. I did see The Panasonic’s at DigiKey and also GEI at pyro Dan’s. I’ll continue some digging.
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15 minutes ago, docc said:
Rather than jack around with the wiring, begin by replacing your relays with 5-pin High Current OMRON. The 5-pin is only needed in the start position, but simple enough to use them in all positions.
I have been doing some digging on past relay threads and you bet I am going to replace everything with Omron, I beleive you made a post I was digging into about the model number for the exact 5 pin
I’ll poke around online for some of those relays right now. Wondering if Amazon is a good bet. Of AF1 racing. MG cycle? Thanks Doc -
7 hours ago, gstallons said:
I hope you have tested the battery voltage and found it above 12.5 v and tested it during cranking . above 12.5v .
You can test the starter on the bike by running a jumper lead from the spade terminal on the solenoid to the large terminal of the solenoid . If the battery and everything else is good , it should crank . If it does , your problem is in the bike's wiring.
P.S. hitting on a permanent magnet starter will give you bad results . The magnets will come loose or break . When you have more than two segments in the starter case , you have trouble .
It was my intention to do it when I woke up GStallions, low and behold it worked, roared to life! I was going to run a line from the battery but then the thought of take off the seat was just too much! Lol. So it turned, my bike is running and I can finally hear the new pipes roar. Now I just need to solve the problem my bike seems to have, I wonder if that line from the relay to the solenoid became compromised somehow. I’m gonna have to do a very close inspection and take a few things apart. Uuuuuugh! Thank you!
Adding to this post, does that solenoid lead make its way directly to just one of the prongs on the Starter relay? My next step once I find a matching blade connector is to just replace it, and possible inspect the relay deck as well.
just to be sure though, a 5 prong relay will still start the bike correct? That absent middle prong isn’t any use for the start sequence?
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I definitely have a armadillo that wants to dance!! I did use a wire to bridge the positive to the blade and worked like a charm with each little sparky tap the the body of the starter.
I took the ground off the transmission bolt give it a good sanding cleaned everything up his dielectric grease on everything that was suggested here and in other posts thanks to all those that contributed. I’ll put my battery on the charger for a few hours until it doesn’t take a draw anymore anymore. This battery is YUASA it’s only about four years old but I only had a trickle charger on it for a year. That’s the next stop I’ll put everything back together and putting it up and give it a charge overnight. Will report back in the morning to see what happens.
I am wondering a bit, maybe it’s possible, somewhere some how that wire from the relay to the blade got pinched. I’ll have to inspect again.
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One last quick thought even though I fiddled around and swapped all the relays, and even though front starter relay seemed to operate other spots where I had replaced it I wonder if I should just get a new 6 pronger.
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13 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:
Ok that is the neutral switch wire. My suggestion was simply a check. I dont even know what the effect would be if the neutral wire was hooked to the starter, probably nothing but its one of those things you just ensure is correct almost unconsciously when you have an issue.
The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.
Ciao
Just getting ready to put the boy to bed shortly so after I’m going to try the power the whole thing up from my VW to see what happens here. Thanks Docc. It should still spin without the solenoid powered I suspect tho eh, just won’t push out that gear.
When I spin the gear on the starter motor itself it doesn’t exactly spin as freely as my previous Valeo starter. Just something to note. Clean as a whistle though.
I did a very close inspection just now of that neutral wire, could use a bit of a cleaning both otherwise in good shape. If after all this doesnt work (after Independently test the starter)I’ll start to really dig in and maybe wire brush the connectors on each end of the power wire, locate the ground to tie frame.......
I ran the bike two weeks ago and it did have a very difficult time getting the starter to engage. Typically a couple taps were needed but this time was quite a lot of effort. If I recall even it was bad before then. Just been a quiet year on the bike is all.
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16 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:
You'll need voltage onto the blade connector as well docc.
Ciao
What exactly does that side blade connector do/go to? Thanks.
I’m not exactly sure where the neutral switch wire may be. I took the starter off yesterday and dismantled it and inspected for my own curiosity and I put the large power wire and the blade connecter back on the blade as it had appeared before.
Although now I am curious beneath the starter there is a lead almost that looks like a spark plug what is that wire and what is that spark plug looking thing going into the gearbox by the looks of it?
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Great point do you suggest maybe I could use my car battery any reason why that wouldn’t work? I’m not exactly the most savvy but I can’t handle a few things.
Should I be able to just take jumper cables from my Volkswagen negative and positive right to the terminals on the starter and the side post on the starter? Thanks Lucky.
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Ok took the tank off. (Time to do the tank off checklist?)
all the connections appear sound. Maybe I need to do a little bit of sanding on the power wires in the grounds making a better connection? Mikko, Another poster here has advised to get the kit pictures here to help long term. https://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Cat=ACA&CatName=Accessories&Shnew=1&Model=0&spPage=14
I’m at a loss right now on what to do next.
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Latest update still nothing working. I did some research and tried Keewee Roy’s method of bridging the starter relay prongs 87 and 30 together. No luck whatsoever. I then checked prong 87 and the battery terminal I definitely have a good trigger lots of Sparks.
I did find after close inspection some wires that were crudely lobbed off and taped together which appeared to be the origins of the kickstand switch I played around with a little bit they seem to be stuck together pretty well wound up and we’re previously covered and tape.
I’m not sure where to inspect for the ground to the frame or maybe even my next step to take the tank off and do a closer inspection is there a possibility that my battery is not strong enough to make the start? It’s been on a trickle charger for some time and hasn’t giving me troubles before I’m just thinking out loud. I’m going to try removing the starter one more time inspecting it and attaching it.
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Hello,
Operating a 2004 cafe sport, had a few starter issues so I decided to shell out a few bucks And pick up a new starter. I have been having starter issues on my bike for probably about two years, always fixed with a couple of taps with a piece of wood. Gradually requiring more often in a little bit firmer taps. Once the bike was warm I never needed to hit the starter again it was always good for the day typically the first one in the morning.
so I put the new starter in everything looks good put the earth wire back on the battery go to start the bike and all of a sudden there’s a loud buzzing from the starter relay. The buzz was never there before, there is current being drawn, the lights do go a bit dim, my neutral light is indeed on. I swapped out relays to no avail. (Can’t remember if the relay for the starter requires the 6 prong relay or 5. I only have 5 pronged a filling the other spots.
My bike was purchased used has never had the kickstand switch, it was removed at some point not by me and it’s never given me any grief that I recall. Before I go and head up to Napa for a few more relays maybe if I should take off the tank and check the connecters on the left side of the frame. One of the things I did when I bought the bike was I remove the tank and I fitted better Japanese bullet connecters.
After that if I have no luck, what is my next course of action? thanks folks!
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Aside from looking a little worse for wear they’re in great shape. I had them ceramic coated four years ago. Just haven’t use them in three years myself. Starting to collect a lot of dust. Comes with everything seen in the photo. 150 USD to include shipping.
https://ibb.co/mtDSxGz
https://ibb.co/vmJ5nn5
https://ibb.co/Gxbkrqm
https://ibb.co/515HbJC -
Did these sell?
Billet Fuel Cap
in Technical Topics
Posted
Ridiculously old, but I am looking for a new fuel cap. Would it be safe to say that the one of these caps fit properly on a 2004 V11 CafeMoto Guzzi?
My fuel cap no longer locks properly and I have fiddle around with it long enough and I am tired of water getting inside. thanks!!
https://www.oberon-performance.co.uk/fuel-cap-kits