XPLRN
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Here is a Craigslist listing for some V-11 goodies; http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/mcy/4100286075.html
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Hi All,
Got a 02 V11 Le Mans and during a recent tire change I want to installed a angle tire valve stem to ease the tire pressure check procedure at the gas station. My research suggest there are two stem size available, one is 11.3mm diameter for most Japanese bikes and the other size is 8.3mm that fits Ducati's and Triumph's rims.
I bought both to be sure and when my tire shop remove my tire stem both size's won't fit as the stock Brembo rims use a odd 6+mm size. I can not find any angle vavle stem in the 6mm size rang so my questions is that have any members sucessufully installed a angle valve stem on their stock rims? If yes, where did you get them?
Thanks
Frank
Hello Frank, great name, same as my dearly missed father!! Anyways.....did you ever get this valve stem fitment issue for your 2002 V11 Lemans rims figured out?? It sounds like the above poster didn't have any problem with the 8.3 m.m. valve stems in his Scrua rims!??? I have a 2002 V-11 Lemans, not a Scura, but one would think that the Bembo rims are the same!???
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Change of life plans with a great woman create the offering of this low mileage(5.6K) Moto Guzzi V11 LeMans for sale. Time to move on and sell this unique(how many do you see on the road!??) Italian motorcycle.
There are some new/optional parts installed on this bike; adjustable height bars, custom forward foot controls/foot pegs, Iridium plugs and a new air filter.
The bike will need a rear tire replacement.
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A couple cosmetic issues,but 5500.00 for a Norge?
Anyoneone nearbuy that could scout it out for the forum?
I've got a friend that lives in Manhattan,KS that is a long time motorcycle enthusiast. He has build several custom bikes over the years(non HD stuff BTW)and is quite knowledgeable. IF someone is seriously interested in this bike you can PM me and see if we can work out a connection for him to go check it out as it is right in the town where he lives. Who knows.........he might even have seen the bike around or even know that guy!?? :-)
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Hi, going to change the inlet rubbers, both sides of throttle body, any tips before I wade in hamfisted?
Sooo how did it go?? I've got this task on My "To Do" list.
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That's an interesting setup! Any idea as to your loaded trailer tongue weight when you were on your trip?? What, if any, changes did you notice with the bike's handling when pulling the trailer??
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Well, the main protagonists of this stinky thread are ironically those who have understood the least of what they write of in so bloated words.
Hubert
As the OP of this thread I'd like it to be known the reason for sharing my challenge of getting the V11 thru emissions was to provide information that might benefit someone else in the future that is faced with the same dilemma.
There is a lot of knowledge here on this forum and being new to the MG world I'm happy to be learning more about what makes them tick.
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Sure a tragedy that your riding friend lost his life with having young children to raise and enjoy. I'm presuming that it was an accident and not a health issue??
I wish you and the remaining family peace and healing.
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Funny, I thought he was just another racist Libertarian.
Here is a thread with missing photos and missing dyno charts
Thanks for posting up the link to the now 3 year old thread!!
I sure enjoyed reading it and he sure seemed to be having fun playing with mods on his V11!!! Tooo bad the pics and dyno charts are missing as I'd like to have seen the PHAT torque curve that was mentioned. Of course having the hi-compression pistons is making more power right away.
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Had pix of it at one point... I think that computer died, tho'!
Enzo/Captain Nemo/The resident d'ckhead was one of those characters who inhabit the internet who seem to rejoice in keyboard-based Turette's syndrome, getting themselves banned from boards, making enemies, etc. I always considered his posts fine entertainment, but then I never had him yanking my chain so vigorously...
I never could quite figure out if he really was the racist neo-nazi uber-liberal his posts made him out to be, or if that was all part of the fun?Anyway, he developed (with the assistance of others) his "Cobra" 2->1 exhaust prior to the Griso making it from concept bike to production [put it around '02 or '03 then...] and therefore he does deserve some credit for producing a "new" [to V11 use] performance exhaust. Fundamentally, it looked like the mirror image of a Griso's stock headers, with the junction moved up to the front corner of the sump instead of the rear, and single pipe running back alongside the sump to turn the corner and cross under the tranny (kind of like the aftermarket Griso pipe that cuts out the "U" under the bike & exits on the right side.)
Enzo had the same problem as most of the H-D ilk in thinking that "noise = power," so he always had too many of the discs in the SuperTrapp megaphone he clamped on the end to produce the right back pressure.
I always wondered if he'd chosen the correct direction to run his headers, esp. after the Griso was released with its headers running on the opposite side, as the few other 2->1 guzzi exhausts I'd seen pix of that ran to the right side had a bunch of extra tubing for the left side head curlicuing about to get the correct tuned lengths?
No matter: put a rt. side aftermarket can on a Griso, paint the entire exhaust system in rattle-can BBQ paint, wrap red & white fiberglas exhaust tape around the headers like a barber pole, hold the whole thing up to a mirror & you'll have a close approximation to the looks of Enzo's "Cobra" exhaust.
He eventually grew tired of trying to turn his Sport into something it wasn't and bought a Honda RC-51 for hooning around on. That was about the last we heard from him... Too bad, as he certainly brought a lot of activity to the board whenever he chose to join in and expose us all to his peculiar slice of insanity!
Thanks for the informative update!! IF anyone has a picture(s) of the Enzo bike or a link to the thread or post where the picture(s) might be I'd like to see what the heck this unique person came up with!!
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Captain Nemo, aka Enzo, is or was a resident of Seatle or thereabouts, who had someone fabricate the exhaust pipes to run under the oil pan, and crossover into a single Cobra brand glasspack muffer.
Quite possibly the best possible design for making power, but the trade off is noise, ground clearance and probably more difficult oil changes.
The photos of that LeMans look similar to what a bay area gent named Frank had fabricated (by a welder coincidentally named Enzo) from the OEM mufflers. It sounded great! But I don't know how it tuned. It had no crossover.
Maybe that is Frank's bike????
Thanks for the informative response! It is a clean looking setup and I'm wondering how it sounded!?? It would be nice if the guy, Frank??, could post up about that exhaust build and the results.
Does anyone have a picture(s) of the Captain Nemo fabricated exhaust setup that they could post up?? I did some searching and found reference to it but missed the pics if there were any.
Just wondering about the OEM crossover or "expansion chamber" as it was called on a parts list I was looking at. What's inside of that part as the aftermarket crossovers sure seem to be favored. I have interest in the Mistral unit after reading this thread; http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...=11564&st=0
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... ala Capt. Nemo's various under engine exhaust mods, although all of his were 2->1 I believe.
Al
That under engine exhaust is interesting...........who is Capt. Nemo ??
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I'm in!
Sure fun looking thru all the Guzzi pictures on that site!! Saved numerous that caught My eye!!
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I have heard both. And while I do agree that I have not heard a bad sounding Guzzi, the FBF's only sound like a Murikan muscle car until you hear the Quat D's. The FBF's have a softer, deeper sound compared to the Quat D, which has a harder, raspier sound. It is like the difference between a racebike (Quat D) and a race-replica (FBF or most of the other two into two's). The only thing that sounds more agressive on a Guzzi is a two into one system. Haven't seen one for the V11, though.
Thanks for sharing your interpretation of hearing both types of exhaust. I've been under the impression that the Quat D was a 2 into 1 system?? I'm wondering why a 2 into 1 system sounds more 'Mur i kan' in tone than a 2 into 2 system on the Guzzi??
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Sorry, my turn to split hairs, again.
The EPA measures more than just CO and HC.
From what I could gather from Google, the EPA regulates the quantity of CO, NOx and HC per distance ridden.
Good times......I'm lucky that I shave my head so don't have to deal the the split hair issues.
Yes, EPA is more strict on the automotive requirements than the MC requirements. On the required emissions testing for MC's it's only HC and CO at an idle setting. IF on the first attempt you don't pass at idle then the following "free re-test" they do a 'conditioning' run where you hold the engine RPM at 2400 to 2800 for about 20-30 seconds and then you idle back down and they test again. So only the two levels currently on my 2002 V11.
Regarding testing in Tuscon I'm not certain but have heard that they have the same emissions requirements. Also IF you work in either of those counties where Phoenix and Tuscon are located the law states that your vehicle has to comply to the emissions requirements as you are using your vehicle on a daily basis in those counties.
Regarding intelligence at the emissions testing centers. It varies........the standard procedure is to pull in the MC, shut off the engine, check the VIN # and do the computer input. Then they ask you to start up the MC and the test starts. They CAN be total pricks and act like Dog figures and try to control the situation.......however all you have to do is explain that "I THE CONSUMER" am paying for this and you need to work with me. LUCKILY where my last emissions test was done the managing supervisor was cool and listened to me explain the problem I'd recently became knowledgeable about regarding the 3 minute deal. Since there were no other vehicles waiting in line he was agreeable to letting me sit there and idle the bike for 3-4 minutes before the test. At the time I didn't know it was an RPM count that controlled the enrichment time cycle. Sooo I'm presuming that at my next emissions test I could sit there for 1/2 a minute at 6K RPM and be good to go........however I don't like to do that in a no load situation.
Now that the bike is finally tagged/street legal I'll be going out and doing some riding in our lovely warm weather to get a feel for the heat soak issues regarding the 3.4 oz. brass mass and how that does or does not affect my bike.
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Another option that is exactly what you are looking for is the FBF CF Slip Ons (made by Giannelli) and Cross Over. I say this because one of my friends heard me coming before he saw my bike for the first time. He has over 30 years of experience with all kinds of "mur-kin hot rods" and said/still says I sound like a Chevy big block when I'm coming down the road. Also, I've had other riders, and non riders tell me how "beautiful your bike sounds". Hell, even the Harley guys admit it! It truly is yet another thing I like about the 90 degree trans mounted air cooled twin...the glorious sound...I'd explain it as "Roarty, mixed with Basso Profundo"
...and welcome to the "Darkness Bike Brotherhood" S.H.+1I have the FBF CF Slip Ons. They rock. Very deep throaty sound. A little loud, but I love it.
I would like to have another set fabricated by them out of Aluminum down the road. I hear that CF breaks down with UV light.
Other than that - nothing finer that I've heard so far.
Just curious, have either of you folks heard the QuatD, in person, to compare your FBF's to?? I'd also like to have the "Mer kin hot rods" sound with my V11 Lemans. I've heard the video clips of the QuatD's which sound quite bitchin' but haven't heard any video clips of the FBF's........I'll have to go do some searching I guess. Since the QuatD or FBF would have to be imported in where is the best place/price to obtain either system in the USA!???
I am heavily biased towards the Quat D for the same reason the OP mentioned; sound, center mass location and looks!!
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The comment was directed at the person I quoted. He has a habit of throwing this (and other not quite relevent) things into threads they don't belong in. Hack and some others have determined (with no actual scientific testing, only seat of the pants "it runs better so it must be more accurate" type testing) that the stock sensor has too much thermal mass to accurately measure the temp of the engine. They have come up with a air temp sensor that measures the temp of the air next to the engine but has much less mass. They believe this is a more accurate way to measure engine temp but their view is not shared by all. Some believe that thermal conductivity (which the air temp sensor way is lacking in) is an issue as well. There is a long thread (possibly one of the longest on this board) going round in circles about this subject, until it was locked due to the way people were behaving.This whole stupid issue has become something like a religion, and the true believers in the low mass air temp sensor look down on the non-believers. You will have to make up your own mind.
The brass holder you have can be a good thing, but it is not without it's down sides as well. Some insulate it to prevent heat loss and most apply a thermal compound between the sensor tip and the holder to improve thermal conductivity.
Sorry to pull yopu and your thread into this messy affair.
Thanks for the excellent explanation of stuff I didn't know about. Messy affairs on the internet forums......not fun stuff however I understand how it can happen!! I come out of a technical/scientific background where data collected was used in multi-million $ legal cases. I only want what is documentable as being correct/best for the operation of the V11. I did use copper anti-seize as a thermal compound to aid in the heat transfer from the brass holder to the temp sensor. Guess I'll have to do some searching for the locked thread to check it out!!
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It's not the education that hurts, it's the tuition !!!!!
True that..........the purpose of this thread was to try and help others out in the future that might run into this situation and come searching here.
I recently found out about the 3 minute fuel dump. It was discussed here on another thread. Actually it is the first 3000 revolutions after start up cold or hot. (about 3 minutes @ idle
) Since they only test at idle you can lean it out via the air bleeds on the T-Bodys. 5.50% CO is a pretty generous standard. I've set mine to between 2&3% maintaining good HCs and a nice steady idle.Do you by chance have a link to the "It was discussed here on another thread" thread ?? I did a fair amount of looking/searching on computer related subject topics and must have missed it!???
I don't know much about 'generous standards', I'm just frustrated that the state I live in is the only one??? in the USA that does MC motorcycle emissions testing!!! Heck even Kallie, the leader of automotive emissions crap, doesn't have MC emissions testing!!!
Wow this is good info- its great when resolutions are posted. Thanks !Would the computer on a 2000 V11 have the same 3k revs subroutine ? Or a variation ?
3 minutes is a long time! Especailly when you want to adjust stuff
I hope the results help someone else in the future........your most certainly welcome!!
Maybe if you check your computer, referencing the pictures in the first posts of this thread you can figure out if you have the Marelli 15M computer.........that's the one I was dealing with.
Yeah.......3 minutes is a long time.......I made sure they had the big fan blowing on it while it was sitting there idling.
And by all means, in addition to making sure it's past 3K rev's, make sure the 1.4 oz brass body OE coolant temp sensor in the head has climbed all the way up its required heat lag time to full operating temp before the Enviro-Nazi's insert their probe!! If not, you're risking over CO% FAIL!!With an ultra low mass air temp sensor in the head, no worry about sensor temp lag time a-tall. . .
Say Dan. D'you reckon there's anyone else out there ready to wake up yet?
I did put in the brass temp sensor holder/body that screws into the right side head. I'm a newbie and didn't know that was a OE coolant temp sensor?? What is the "ultra low mass air temp sensor in the head" that you reference?? I figure that the 50 mile ride over there in 114 degree temp got the whole assembly good and heat soaked.
Help a MG brother out.........what is the wake up comment directed towards!???
Unless you trailered your bike to the testing station, by your own testimony the stock sensor would maintain a higher temp reading (some how possibly higher then the actual engine temp?) longer. Now it's the other way around. Is it even relevent to the issue?Yeah, SOMEONE needs to wake up all right....
Once again.........help a MG brother out.........what is the "SOMEONE needs to wake up all right" comment directed towards!??? Who are you referencing with the "by your own testimony" ?? I did put the all brass sensor holder in as it was mentioned here somewhere that it would provide a more accurate cylinder head temp reading.........true or ????
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Well I wanted to wrap this up with the results of all the emissions hassle I've been thru since purchasing My 2002 MG V11 Lemans;
1. 1st emissions attempt back in October 2008 when purchased = FAIL with a result of 6.36% on the CO reading - $19 given to the ADEQ(Arizona Dept. of Environmental Quality)
2. 2nd attempt on July 18th 2009 = Fail with a reading of 6.78% on the CO ; Another $19 to ADEQ due to not getting back within 2 months of the 10/2008 test for a free retest, My bad!!
3. Took the V11 to Arizona Super Bikes and had it EGA(Exhaust Gas Analysis) tuned on July 22nd 2009 . They documented on the work order that the bike was EGA tuned to 3.30% average on the two cylinders. YEA!! I should be able to smoke thru emissions now I'm thinking!! $55 for the work and I'm thinking that if that makes it pass it was a great investment.
4. Free re-test done on July 27th due to failed test on July 18th = FAIL with a result of 6.35% on the CO reading.
O.K. ..........NOW I'm getting pretty frustrated and losing My good humor. I call up Arizona Super Bikes and explain the situation. I happened to chat with Greg, the very first person that had impressed me with his knowledge of MG's, emissions testing and related scenarios. We chat and he shares with me all the frustrations he's had with ADEQ emissions hassles with the Ducati's and MG's that he sells and has to make "street legal/emission compliant" . He stated the main problem they fought with emissions on the Ducati's and MG's was with the computer they used back in the late 90's/early 2000's (the Marelli 15M). The computer has a operations design feature that every time your ignition key is turned on and the computer is powered up(bike running??)there is a 3 minute enrichment cycle before dropping back to the standard factory run settings or the settings tuned by people with the correct computer gear. He also mentioned that I could bring it back and they would QA the tune and make sure I didn't have some freaky sensor mal-function while riding it less than 200 miles since the tune was done. I thought that was very fair and started thinking about what to do.
I wanted to do an independent QA of the tune work already done by the Arizona Super Bikes technician and attempt to validate the newly shared info about the 3 minute enrichment cycle. It was starting to make sense that ever time I pull into the emissions testing facility they make you turn off the motorcycle while checking the VIN # and getting the information brought up on their computers. Hence the fact that every time I restarted the bike/turned the key on I was running in the enrichment mode while the idle test was being conducted.
Applying some common sense logic I decided to go over to the emissions station closest to Arizona Super Bikes for the next emissions test. That way it would be easy to ride over to Arizona Super Bikes and have them do the offered EGA re-test to figure out what was wrong if it didn't pass. Sure fun stuff on a 114 degree day at 1PM in the afternoon!!
5. So I ride 50+ miles to the emissions station and talk with the manager guy, Dan, about the newly learned computer enrichment issue and how it jacks with the idle reading they take. He's very cool and sez that there is nobody in line so sure I can bring it in and let it idle(with the big fan on it) for 3-4 minutes before they run the test. Well SOB.........it SMOKES THRU with a 2.90 CO reading!! YEA!!! I gladly pay another $19 to the ADEQ and get out of there!!
My next stop was at Arizona Super Bikes to personally shake Greg's hand and thank him for providing me the key of knowledge on how to deal with the emissions issue I'd been fighting!! My hat's off to Greg and Kyle at Arizona Super Bikes for getting my V11 emissions compliant so I can now ride this fun bike on the Arizona roads.....legally!!!
As I look back at how consistent the FAIL numbers were on the CO readings it sure does validate the computer issue Greg had told me about. Check this out;
1st time = 6.36%
2nd time = 6.78%
3rd time = 6.35%
Each time the V11 was being idle tested the computer was operating in an enrichment mode, kinda makes sense now!!
Sooo after spending appproximately $225-250 the problem of getting the bike licensed to ride on the street is over!!!
$75 = Arizona Dept. Of Transportation one year registration
$57 = $19x3 to ADEQ for the emissions testing
$55 = Arizona Super Bikes for EGA tune
$50-60 = new Iridium plugs, new air filter and the all brass cylinder head temp sensor holder
I hope any Arizona V11 owner that is having problems with getting their V11 thru emissions will cyber-stumble across this thread and benefit from the knowledge I've gained thru this process. I think AZ is the ONLY state that requires MC emissions testing, anyone else know of a state doing MC emissions testing currently!?? Anyways now the knowledge of how to approach the emissions testing will be out there if any other states in the future decide to start emmisions testing MC's .
I'm also curious to know if this computer 3 minute enrichment cycle is common knowledge with the technically knowledgeable folks here!!! ?????
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are you left handed too? is your computer a mac? we're a bunch of oddballs, welcome!
Everyone is born right-handed...........only a few of us rise above it!!!
Thanks for the welcome!!
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[EDIT: I just reread your original post & see you're in Phoenix...]
There's always the "do a complete tuneup & use fuel additives method." How far are you off from making their CO #s? I presume you live in Phoenix or Tucson, those are the only AZ areas I'm aware of that have emissions testing. Use some of the tricks the old VW drivers have been relying on: First time I took it thru it was last October when I first got it and I'd done nothing to it. The CO came in at 6.36% and the "Idle Standard" is 5.50% . Flusterating however I got busy with life and now 1/2 a year+ later am trying to get it to pass emissions again. I went ahead and put NGK Iridium plugs in it and changed out the cylinder head temp sensor 'holder' to the all brass one as I'd read somewhere that would help with getting a more accurate input to the ECU with the potential for better MPG/better emissions. A respected friend suggested removing the air filter to lean it out a bit so I ended up gutting out the original air filter as I have a new OEM one to install after I get thru this mess. I also ran about a pint of alcohol in the fuel in an attempt to help it run cleaner.
The end result this last Saturday afternoon was a CO reading of 6.78% with the "Idle Standard" still being 5.50%. Sure flustrating as I had hoped to effect some positive change with the mods I'd done.
You need a new air filter... No, newer than that!
I will have a brand new OEM filter installed before it leaves the garage again. Fresh spark plugs. If you've got more than 1k miles on them before the test, you need new ones. Seriously.New NGK Iridums
Buy some CA gas; it's so chock full of oxygenates that you shouldn't have any problem meeting the CO requirements! <_>
I assume you're using premium? If you aren't using CA gas to pass the test, you might want to try running regular [for those who don't know, AZ still sells real gasoline...] Yes, it'll ping like crazy under load, but since emissions tests aren't done under load, you should be able to sneak under the wire. Just dilute that regular w/ premium immediately on leaving the test facility, & especially before trying to ride the bike normally! Yes, the regular is a faster burn rate fuel and that does help from what I understand.
Go to Pep Boys & drop a bottle of carb cleaner in your tank [mostly methanol.] Again, something you do right before the test (& get it out of the tank asap, our plastic tanks don't like the stuff long term...) I did put in some alcohol when I tried the last emissions attempt.........didn't really make much difference from the previous test........in fact it was a bit higher reading however I attribute that to testing at a different facility
Be sure to use the looser valve specs [.006" in, .008" exh] than the U.S. specs (which are way tight to control noise, & would sabotage your emissions.) I've not adjusted the valves yet.........however I'll certainly keep that "looser valve specs" in mind...........where are those specs for if the U.S. specs are tighter???
Best of luck. If you have any friends in other AZ counties, see if you can register your bike using their address, & save yourself the testing headache. Thanks!! That gets to be too much of a game...........does your drivers license address match the vehicle registration address and if not then why not!!???
Thanks to all that have helped me figure out that I've got a '15m' computer with no trim potentiometer adjustment vs. the 'p8'. The pictorial proof that Paul Minnaert provided as shown below was awesome!!
I'm curious.............is this the port/plug-in point where diagnostic equipment would be attached??
The next step after realizing that this is NOT a DIY type situation, thanks to numerous folks input here, is to take it to a professional shop and let them do the diagnostics and EGA(Exhaust Gas Analysis) tuneup. I was referred by a very knowledgeable MG dealer out of the Valley to this facility; http://www.azsbk.com/ . I have talked with a couple of the personnel there and they explained to me that they do a lot of Ducati tweeking and that the computer is the same unit. It was that the Ducati software they use has more parameters they can tweek to give it a more accurate EGA tuneup. They will also be doing the basic stuff that I've not getting hands on with yet.........TPS setting and idle air bleed synch.
I have a 9AM appointment tomorrow morning at Arizona Super Bike so hopefully I'll be running it thru the emissions station tomorrow afternoon with passing numbers on the CO!!
Thanks again to all that responded...........I'm learning about the MG and am appreciative of the helpfulness of the folks on this forum!! Kinda getting the understanding that MG's are unique/outside of the mainstream........of course My GF sez I am too and that's why I chose that bike!!
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Hello
There is no potentiometer on your bike.
You need a diagnostic tool or a computer and software to adjust CO.
Nils
Dang.........here I thought it might be a simple DIY adjustment. What year bike is the first picture referencing with the writing about the computer having an adjustable CO trim potentiometer??
A dealer should be able to solve it for you, the tool that guzzi has for it is called AxeoneI Googled 'Axeone' with no luck.........is it a computer diagnostic tool or ???
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I'm a newbie with a question regarding getting my 2002 V11 Lemans to pass emissions requirements the lovely state I live in has imposed. I've went out and done some searching here and found this little morsel of info;
CO is where my bike is failing emissions.........the computer is stock and the bike has under 5K on it. I noted in the writing(above picture) that the computer has a MG sticker on it and the rubber plug to remove is under that. Well on my 2002 there is no sticker and I'm wondering if the computer has the same 270 degree sweep trim potentiometer for adjusting the CO?? Here are some pictures of what my computer looks like and I'm wondering if in fact that black round plug inside the red box is what I have to remove to access this 'trim potentiometer!?? Is there any way of knowing if in fact this computer on my bike is the same one mentioned in the above picture/screen capture as having the 270 degree sweep potentiometer.......short of actually taking a screwdriver, doing the range of movement and establishing the full range of adjustment of the CO trim potentiomenter??
Here are some pictures of my computer;
I know it's probably very simple stuff for people that have been around the MG's computer system however I just don't want to mess anything up and would like to have a bit more background knowledge that I'm approaching this correctly.
If you have any knowledge regarding this please post up as I'd sure like to get the bike to pass emissions so I can enjoy riding it!! Thanks!!
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But it isn't! Just click the British flag and you're set.
Got it, British flag it is..........I guess I was looking for something USA.......LOL's...........
All Guzzis go to heaven, right?
in 24/7 V11
Posted
A couple of items that relate to this thread are listed in the personal classifieds here on this forum; http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/mcy/4100286075.html