[Trying to get the best out of your stockish 8V Griso.]

Pete:

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I did confirm earlier in the week that the Service Recall 002-2009 was done. (ie. Replacing the cam followers and tappets.)

 

So - I find it a little more comforting when you describe the engine as sounding like a cement mixer. I was wondering about that. It certainly does sounds like there is a lot going on in there.

 

When they put the stock pipe back on, I suspect that the TPS needed to reset and/or just need to put some miles on the bike. When the put the Term pipe back on when it arrives, I suspect the TPS has to be reset again. This time I do not want the baffle removed.

 

 

 

Irregular noises are a no-no. Mine sounds like a cement mixer full of bricks but they are regular bricks!

 

Obvious questions. Is it eligible for the cam recall work and if so has this been carried out? As well as the cams and tappets the recall also included new plug caps as the originals, which have three sealing rings, were almost impossible to get out without damaging them. The replacements had two rings but can still be a right sod to get out. You can replace them with NGK SBO5E caps which are a lot more resistant to damage. Also because they are a resistor plug cap on a resistor plug the resistance in the system is....uh... high. It is not unknown for the sparks to simply blow their way through the caps in the search for an easier earth path.

 

Until you've found out if it's eligible for the cam recall work any other suggestions are pointless. Get back to me when they've checked for you.

 

Pete

[Trying to get the best out of your stockish 8V Griso.]

This was very useful post.

 

I just recently purchased a demo 2009 8v that has 1500 miles on it. It has (had) a Term pipe with the baffle removed. Well on the first ride home, I got caught in a heavy rain storm. Apparently, the spark plug failed in the left-hand cylinder and as I rode the bike for about 2 miles to get to cover at a gas station, the Term pipe was fried by unspent fuel. Bummer. (Guzzi is replacing the pipe.)

 

The dealer has since worked on the bike to fix the spark plug and put the stock pipe back on while the new Term pipe is delivered. I took it home the next day, but it just didn't ride "right". At minimal throttle opens and cruising aroung 2,000 - 4,000 RPMs, the bike seems to shutter and "miss". The other very puzzling thing is, when coasting a to a stop, occassionaly there is a high pitch whistling sound coming from the right-hand side head. The bike starts, sounds great, runs great under open throttle, but when you back off the throttle to just "cruise", things are less than smooth.

 

I have owned many bikes and in fact have two others sitting in my garage (2008 - Concours, 2007 - Trimph Speedmaster); but this is my first Guzzi and don't have a context for how this bike should feel. It is slight consistent bucking normal? The occasional high pitcah whinning sound can't be normal.

 

The guys at the shop have asked if they keep the bike until they sort this out. Any ideas what this could be?

 

The owner of the motorcycle dealership is a real stand-up person and has offered to give me my money back; but I really love the bike and he gave me great deal on it since I have purchased other bikes from him in the past.

 

Thanks, Patric

 

 

 

First let me put a few disclaimers into this message. Most of the

experimentation has been carried out on one bike, mine and some of my

observations are subjective and based on my own prejudices, likes and

dislikes. I am NOT claiming that this is any sort of 'Definitive Guide'

simply that the laws of physics and engineering will tend to agree with my

observations and finding.

 

Secondly this is not a guide on how to radically improve the fuelling or

performance of your bike. It is simply the results of a series of

experiments I've carried out over the last year and a half on my bike and a

couple of others belonging to customers. If you wish to radically alter the

performance of your machine you will need to have some means of re-mapping

the ECU. There are several options available and Todd Eagan's PCV-Autotune

package certainly seems to be the most highly developed and dedicated

currently available. Many people though can't or are unwilling or unable to

justify the expense of such a unit and what I am trying to do here is to

just offer some advice on how to get the best from your 'stock' machine with

nothing more than basic modifications such as an aftermarket pipe and

alterations to the airbox.

 

When they are delivered from the factory I have generally found that the

set-up of things like the TB ballance and TPS setting are pretty good which

is different to the older pushrod CARC bikes with the W5AM controller which

all seemed to come with the TPS set at 3.5 degrees or thereabouts rather

than 4.6. Whether this was intentional or not I have no idea but the 8V

seems to generally be set up accurately. That having been said it is

important that before you embark on ANY changes you should ensure that the

bike is correctly tuned and serviced. While this may seem obvious to most I

know from bitter experience that many shops, either through laziness or

ignorance simply don't perform the alloted tasks in the service schedule

beyond changing the oil and perhaps the oil filter at the first service. If

the bike ISN'T tuned and serviced fully nothing that is changed is going to

be of much help. It will still be a munter and I'm sorry, that isn't the

bike's fault!

 

The very best first step you can take with an 8V Griso is to ensure it has

the latest map upgrade from the factory in it. I believe the code for this

is GRS8V068, I think the original was GRS8V054. Why the obtuse numbering?

Don't ask me! This in itself makes a substantial difference to the running

of the bike usually elliminating the rough running on a light throttle which

I think is what people reffer to as 'surging' but since I've never

experienced what I'd call 'Surging' I can't be sure. What in fact is

happening is that at certain revs and light throttle openings the mixture

goes critically lean so the cylinders don't fire every stroke. This uneven

running results in a jerkiness and alot of lash in the driveline causing

clattering and banging that anybody with 1/4 of a brain will realize can't

be good for the bits that are bashing against each other. The good news is

that if everything else is right on a stock bike the new bike not only deals

with this very effectively but it also elliminates the power 'Step' at about

4,750-5,000RPM. This was the first thing that a customer I loaded it up on

the other day said, the delivery was now linear with no pronounced dips or

steps in the rev range.

 

After this the next step in most peoples' 'to Do' list is a new pipe to get

rid of the very bulky and heavy original and this, more than anything else,

is a very important choice if you wish to get the best from your machine. To

start off with I'll upset all the 'Loud Pipes Save Lives' brigade by telling

you that if you put on anything remotely 'Open' or 'Un-baffled' it is going

to run like a hairy goat. Even with the 068 map in an open pipe will simply

lean the mixture out to a point where the engine looses its smoothness and

begins to feel 'Harsh' and vibratory.

 

To digress for a moment it is worth giving a short and simple explanation of

why this is so critical. An engine is simply a self propelling air pump. Air

is pushed into the cylinder where it is heated by burning fuel with the

oxygen in the air. The heat expands the gas in the cylinder and this forces

the piston down the bore turning the heat into mechanical work. To do this

optimally the amount of air and fuel combined, the air/fuel ratio or AFR has

to be at a certain proportion one to the other and this is governed by a

number of factors that we don't need to delve in to but if it is wrong, or

the further it is from correct the greater the chance of mechanical damage

and the less useable energy is produced that can be turned into mechanical

work. There are times when a poorly tuned engine will make MORE heat, the

problem is that the heat won't be useable to turn into work.

 

Before the days of computer controlled fuel injection fuel delivery was by

carburetor and if changes were made to how an engine breathed it was fairly

easy for your average 'everyman' to swap components in a carb and get the

machine to produce the correct AFR, the controlling factors were manifold

depression and gas velocity with atmospheric pressure as a constant. It was

very much a two dimensional image, rather like a graph. With the advent of

EFI many other factors could be taken into acount, hence the number of

sensors feeding data to the ECU and the fuel delivery along with spark

advance are all combined with several other factor to produce a far more

three dimensional model of how the fuel is delivered. Hence it's description

as a 'Map' because one of the commonest ways to show diagaramatically what

is happening with the signals from the ECU is by means of a three

dimensional relief image that looks for all the world like a relief map of a

block of land. The thing is that to alter the parameters of the map, (Which

in most ECU's is encrypted by the programmer.) one needs the tooling to

break into what is loaded in there and alter it. Not many of us have the

equipment, skills or knowledge to do it. I don't for one. I'm sure its an

open book to some but lets be realistic. Most of us haven't got a clue! That

is the reason why full tuning options, especially for small volume machines

like Guzzis, are going to be expensive and it is also why I'm trying to

explain how to get the best out of what we are stuck with with the factory

map.

 

****************************************************************************************************************************

 

While far from perfect if we accept that what we have is what we've got what

we have to do is try and make any modifications we do either use the map to

our advantage or, as a minimum, not do anything that will make things worse

anywhere. The first thing I found was that when I fitted an open, unbaffled

pipe the already lean nature of the map was exacerbated to the point where

the bike not only behaved like a pig anywhere below 3,500 RPM, 8-stroking

and clattering as well as backfiring, (Popping.) on the over-run to such a

degree that it was actually tiring to ride, especially in traffic. Loading

up the second, now superceeded, map from Guzzi helped a bit and at least

made riding the bike fun again but it was still plagued by lean-ness and a

general malaise of lean-ness exemplified by a harsh, vibratory feel to the

whole machine, (You'll find me harking back to this description a lot!).

Fitting a Fat-Duc O2 sensor fooler certainly helped this in the closed loop

area of the map where it was most apparent but it wasn't without it's

downside. At certain points the mixture would go critically rich and throw

up the 'Service' icon on the dash. It didn't effect the running but it was a

serious pain in the bum. The plugs never showed any signs of excessive

lean-ness or richness but it was obviously going far enough outside the

parrameters that the ECU would accept as 'Normal', at least the progarmme

doesn't seem to have a 'Limp' home' mode when this happens as performance

didn't seem unduly effected. More on the Fat-Duc later.

 

Eventually I couldn't stand it any more. Much though I loved the look of the

pipe the fact was it simply didn't work. I toyed with the idea of making a

*proper* dB killer for it but at the end of the day I found out that I was

owed some dosh by Moto International so I got them to send me the 'Factory'

Termi pipe and slipped that on. Not being able to get the dB killer out of

the Termi due to the loving attentions of the TSA at LA airport, (The pipe

was bought over from the USA for me by a friend who was coming to borrow the

Griso.) who had managed to dent and bend it a bit I ran it with it in and

the difference was immediately noticeable and a huge improvement in terms of

vibration dimunition and smoother running in the closed loop area. Shortly

after my mate had returned I downloaded the latest upgrades from the factory

to my axone and discovered that there was yet another map upgrade, the 068

map, available so I uploaded that and I have to say that obviously someone

at the factory had finally taken the time to do what should of been done in

the first place because the new map, combined with the restricted pipe

transformed the way the bike behaved. Gone was the stuttery, 8 strokey

,gearbox-chattering, final drive hammering behavior at low load/rpm, gone

was the step in the power delivery in the midrange, it was now pretty much

seamless from 2,500 all the way through to the 'Going too fast' area!

 

Knowing at this point that it was seemingly fuelling well everywhere I

decided to tackle the one problem I knew it was hampered by severe richness

at the top end. This is an almost universal feature of all motorbike and car

maps and is probably a result of the litigious societies we live in. By

richening them up unduly at the top end the can calim in any court that they

have limited the engine's power because they could of made it make more!

Daft but true! So it was out with the hole-saw and I very un-scientifically

started cutting holes in the airbox lid. I continued to do so until it felt

'Right' and took the snorkel off the back of the box for good measure. In

tat itteration it stillv fueled up well in the closed loop area and

throughout the midrange regardless of throttle opening and would now pull to

the rev limiter in top on the flat! Neither I or the Griso are lightweights!

I was happy and it stayed there for several months.

 

Last week for the first time I had a bog-stock 8V in for a head swap under

warranty. It had never been serviced properly so i did that too and uploaded

the 068 map. It ran very nicely so I decided it was about time I pulled off

the Fat Duc to see if it was needed with the Termi. The straightforward

answer is no. It made no difference. In fact it may even of run a bit better

without it so it won't be going back on. Spurred on by this I decided to

finally tackle the dB killer in the Termi. Not because I wanted more noise,

I hate loud pipes, but just to see what would happen and how it would

behave. getting it out was a pain and I had to damage the cat to do it which

was a pain but i didn't harm it severely, just a 10mm hole for the long

punch to go through to get to the back of the dB killer.

 

Immediately the harshness, the popping on the over-run and a host of other

silly little glitches showed up again. Nothing serious or un-nerving but

irritating because I knew exactly how good it could be. Because I'd damaged

the dB killer getting it out and I've given oit to a welder mate to

'remanufacture' I decided to see if restricting the intake side would have

any effect so it was off with the drilled airbox lid and back on with the

full lid and snorkel. Result? In open loop it was very nice. In closed loop

it would sometimes hesitate when the throttle was cracked open and the

popping on the over-run was still there.

 

As soon as I get the repaired dB killer back it'll be going in and staying

in. I'll see how she goes with the stock airbox lid but I reckon it's best

itteration so far has been 068 map, restrictive pipe with dB killer in, no

Fat Duc and drilled airbox lid. By far the most critical factor in ALL of

the experiments has been the pipe fitted. As soon as the exhaust is

un-baffled the mixture gores critically lean in most of the range and it is

readily apparent by the way the bike feels and behaves.

 

So there you have it. By all means you can fit an open pipe, if you enjoy

being deafened, but your 'Stock-ish' bike will run like a pig. at the end of

the day you CAN have a pipe as open as you like, but you WILL need to stump

up for an expensive map modifier to make it work. A catalytic converter in

the pipe will act as a baffle of sorts but it is obvious from me experience

with mine that the cat alone is not baffling enough, to get the best of the

stock maps to work to the best of its ability you NEED more restriction to

the flow of gas through the engine and the critical point on an otherwise

stock bike would seem to be the exhaust pipe.

 

I have the full PCV/Autotune option but because I misunderstood how it

worked I did't get the ECU re-flash so it wouldn't work on my Oz bike. What

I'm going to do with it is take it over to the US and put it on and tune it

with Todd's assistance on my US 8V. I have few doubts that with the full

package it will run better than my Oz bike does but as I said at the

beginning, this is not about striving for perfection, its about getting the

best you can with what we have.

 

So in summary.

 

The GRS8V068 map is a must.

 

An open pipe is a disaster. when choosing make sure that the pipe you

purchase has a decent and fairly restrictive dB killer or your fuelling will

go up the shit. Also your neigbors won't hate you as much! A Catalyser in

and of itself isn't vital but since it keeps the nasties out of the air AND

is beneficial to the running of the bike, why not?

 

A Fat Duc seems to make no difference once the 068 map is in and not having

it in line means you don't get the annoying 'Service' icon coming on

intermittently.

 

Drilling the airbox gives slight benefits, especially at the top end where

you would expect it to but it increases noise for the pilot, (Although the

induction honk is, if ear plugs are worn, pleasant rather than tiring and

deafening.) but doing so is not something I would describe as a 'Must Do'.

The nice thing is the factory airbox lids are dirt cheap. Buy one and

experiment. if you don't like it? Slap the full lid and snorkel back on.

 

The main bike used for these experiments was mine but i have also seen other

bikes one stock, one with an Ago pipe with cat in but no dB killer and one

with a truly horrid Staintune on it with a dB killer. The Ago equipped bike

with the killer out behaved very, very similarly to my Termi equipped bike

with the killer out and the stock lid on the airbox. The Staintune with the

killer in made the Griso sound like an asthmatic, farting tortoise and its

performance was roughly similar..The owner took mine for a flog and said

that the Staintune would be on fleabay the next day and the stocker back on

until he decided what else to buy!

 

Just my experience, not gospel on tablets of stone but I hope it will help

other owners in their decision making.

 

Pete