RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 When my 2000 V11 Sport was purchased, the owner stated these problems: 1) Sometimes it starts but usually it cranks slow then clickkykykykyk... wont start. He says battery probably needs replacing and it's been through a few winters without tendering. It will start if you leave it on the slow charger for 30min or push start it (its an Odyssey PC545). 2) Headlamp sometimes doesnt work, only city lamp. He wasnt sure why. SO... I decided to push start it and run it a couple miles to charge the original battery a bit before buying a new one to see it it would charge up. Idling, the headlamp wasnt working (only the city light) so I drove it around the block and about 1/4 mile later, the headlamp randomly started working?? I was able to run it around the block a few more times, turn it off, restart it and guess what... no Headlight. So I tried revving it, riding it thru the rpm range, nothing. No headlight. So I turn it off to try to restart it and Clickykykykykyky.... no start. I bought a new Yuasa YTZ12S battery (which I wasnt aware has the terminals reversed and was thicker than the Odyssey) and fired the bike right up no problem. I rode it about 7 miles to HomeDepot to get a few neoprene washers for the seat cowl cover and after shopping for 15 minutes, it restarted no problem and I started to ride across the parking lot but I noticed... NO HEADLAMP. So I turned it off and tried to restart it thinking maybe its an key switch problem but NO LUCK... Clickykykykykyky... no start. I had to push start it again and I rode another 7 miles rowards home and noticed the fuel warning lamp came on so to the BP it was. Turned it off to refuel and after, it fired up no problem with NO HEADLAMP. I couldnt drive home from the BP with no headlmap so I had to try to restart it as I had, push starting it and surely enough, headlamp came back on. Got it home 1 mile away, shut it off and it would not restart. What is going on? LOL. Sometimes it wont start. Sometimes it restarts after its been ridden. Sometimes it wont restart at all. Sometimes it starts with no headlamp. Sometimes the headlamp comes on after riding a short distance. I've replaced the battery. Where do I look first? grounds? relays? switches? -Rich p.s., I also think the TACH wasnt working when the headlamp is out and when headlamp isnt working, the taillamp only stays a parking lamp i.e., brake levers do NOT make it brighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 BYW, the bike has just over 12,000 miles and the owner stated the relays had been replaced/upgraded but after reading thru the 'Relay Failures, Why they fail and how to fix' thread, I'm thinking its most likely relay failure... but I havent found the list of symptoms attributed to relay failure so I am still searching through the forums... When the clutch lever is pressed, I DO hear the fuel pump priming and the starter solenoid is just clickykykykykykykykyky'ing away like a battery is dead. it doesnt seem to be a stand switch or neutral safety switch issue. Relays? Could it be a voltage regulator/alternator problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 That sure sounds like relays to me. Get a set from Pyro Dan and I'll bet your problems will be gone. Of course it could be something else. You might try rotating the relays, but that might put the bad relay somewhere else, so be methodical and determine which is the headlight/starter relay The starter relay is the one most notorious for going bad and is the only one that requires the fifth pin. And of course if any are 4pin relays they won't work for the starter relay. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 That sure sounds like relays to me. Am I correct in assuming if the starter solenoid is clicking away, that the #1 START relay would be working correctly? Would a failing relay or multiple relays cause any battery charging problem? I know the #2 LIGHTS relay sticking could cause the headlamp/taillamp problems but would it affect charging or starting? Every time it doesnt start, it's not completely dead. I turn the key on, engage the the clutch, hear the fuel pump prime up, push the start button and it sometimes gives a weak half a crank then I hear the starter solenoid click away.... clickclkclkclkclkclkclk.... If I put it on the battery charger after this, it fires up. This is a NEW battery, charged from the shop today which started the bike immediately when installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Am I correct in assuming if the starter solenoid is clicking away, that the #1 START relay would be working correctly? I am not positively sure, but I think if the current is reduced by a faulty relay, but still present the solenoid may click but not engage fully. Would a failing relay or multiple relays cause any battery charging problem? Yes, if it is the starter/headlight relay When headlight goes out because of faulty relay, the reference to the regulator goes out. I know the #2 LIGHTS relay sticking could cause the headlamp/taillamp problems but would it affect charging or starting? Every time it doesnt start, it's not completely dead. I turn the key on, engage the the clutch, hear the fuel pump prime up, push the start button and it sometimes gives a weak half a crank then I hear the starter solenoid click away.... clickclkclkclkclkclkclk.... If I put it on the battery charger after this, it fires up. This is a NEW battery, charged from the shop today which started the bike immediately when installed. Either the #1 starter relay or the #2 headlight relay failing could effect the charging. The #1 starter relay is more overloaded with the lighting current than the #2 relay, so the #1 starter relay is more prone to failure. The lighting current, as it passes through the starter relay, is carried through the 87a NormallyClosed terminal. The GEI relays that Dan sells have the highest amp rating available at the 87a terminal. Other relays are rated dangerously close to actual current, so failure is more likely. The lighting current of the #2 headlight relay is carried through the 87 NormallyOpen terminal which for most relays has a higher amp rating than the 87a NC terminal, so it is less likely to be a problem. I hope that is clear...I am a little foggy on cold medicine at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBenGuzzi Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 its MOST likely his relays, buy some nicer bosch replacements and to try and get you through play musical relays, they're the grey square looking things under the seat, Second guess would be a bad alternator, third guess a bad ground thats zapping you juice, but the relays are still most likely as a bad ground should show up right away not after a time I would think, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waspp Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Am I correct in assuming if the starter solenoid is clicking away, that the #1 START relay would be working correctly? Would a failing relay or multiple relays cause any battery charging problem? I know the #2 LIGHTS relay sticking could cause the headlamp/taillamp problems but would it affect charging or starting? Every time it doesnt start, it's not completely dead. I turn the key on, engage the the clutch, hear the fuel pump prime up, push the start button and it sometimes gives a weak half a crank then I hear the starter solenoid click away.... clickclkclkclkclkclkclk.... If I put it on the battery charger after this, it fires up. This is a NEW battery, charged from the shop today which started the bike immediately when installed. It does sound like a relay issue but make sure all your connections are clean and good, even the sockets that accept the relays can get dirty or sloppy. Your ground is very important, being intermitant tells me its more of a connection problem than a faulty relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 I'm learning a lot in a very short time. Bear with me I am now familiar with the relays, their position and their basic operation but I am slowly starting to understand, with reading MANY electrical threads on here, that they barely cut it. I checked this morning and ALL of my relays are updated 5 pin relays (5 new improved relays already on order from Dan) so I swapped a few of em around to test but unfortunately, the battery still seems like it doesnt have enough 'juice' to crank over the bike. Key ON, neutral indicator is ON, headlamp was ON, held clutch in and got the fuel pump whirrrrring, pressed the START button and the headlamp dimmed and clickykykykykyky from the starter solenoid. I dont think last night, the headlamp was even coming on when the KEY was switched on. With that said and if I understand correctly, the Headlamp runs of the 5th terminal of the START relay, NOT the Lights Relay. If that Start relay was sticking after the bike was running, inhibiting the headlamp from turning on, does this also inhibit the charging from alternator to battery? Would a sticking starter solenoid cause a a charging problem or power to NOT go to the headlamp after started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhansen Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 KISS.............. keep it simple stupid. I'm voting for a bad connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 KISS.............. keep it simple stupid. I'm voting for a bad connection. I'll be evaluating all the grounds, relay sockets, crimp connectors, etc. I will get it started and tap on the solenoid, relays, jiggle connections, etc. I will measure the battery voltage running and note if the headlamp is on or not and compare the readings. If this is a common problem or symptom, I am sure I wasted money on a new battery. If so, I'm happy to say I'll be going BACK to my Odyssey PC545 which fits MUCH better under my seat and store the Yuasa for back up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 When headlight goes out because of faulty relay, the reference to the regulator goes out. Would an intermittent relay allow it to start one time, run for a few moments at idle, manually turn it off and NOT restart because the battery was overtaxed in such a short time, it lacked the juice to restart? I'll check all grounds/connections ASAP. If current is reduced by a failing regulator or a bad/loose connection and it causes the solenoid to not fully engage, will that create similar symptoms as a low voltage battery?? Its just odd that the bike would crank and start one minute and then clickityclickity the starter solenoid like the battery was low the next minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Would an intermittent relay allow it to start one time, run for a few moments at idle, manually turn it off and NOT restart because the battery was overtaxed in such a short time, it lacked the juice to restart? I'll check all grounds/connections ASAP. If current is reduced by a failing regulator or a bad/loose connection and it causes the solenoid to not fully engage, will that create similar symptoms as a low voltage battery?? Its just odd that the bike would crank and start one minute and then clickityclickity the starter solenoid like the battery was low the next minute. Yes. Do. Yes. Yes, it's odd and thats precisely what my Ural was doing when I had a bad starter relay (not the solenoid). I refused to believe that it could be the relay and wasted 3 months chasing around other problem. The solenoid takes a LOT of current to pull in, if the starter relay has worn contacts or whatever, it will pass voltage - but not enough current. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichPugh Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 Yes. Do.Yes. Yes, it's odd and thats precisely what my Ural was doing when I had a bad starter relay (not the solenoid). I refused to believe that it could be the relay and wasted 3 months chasing around other problem. The solenoid takes a LOT of current to pull in, if the starter relay has worn contacts or whatever, it will pass voltage - but not enough current. Thanks Carl! I appreciate the reply. I'm on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Do a targeted search of electrical matters limited to posts by "Gary Cheek" and also by Carl- "Callison". Both have made some good suggestions on improved grounding by adding a couple grounding wires...I don't remember exactly where, but somewhere in the headlight. Also, Gary posted an improved headlight wiring scheme that avoids running all the current through the switchgear. Finally, add a grounding strap from your voltage regulator to the engine, because it's not grounded particularly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waspp Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 it's odd and thats precisely what my Ural was doing when I had a bad starter relay (not the solenoid). I refused to believe that it could be the relay and wasted 3 months chasing around other problem. The solenoid takes a LOT of current to pull in, if the starter relay has worn contacts or whatever, it will pass voltage - but not enough current. I had a similar incident on my cafe bike but I was convinced it was the relay so off to napa for a replacement...it wasn't the relay just a suspect crimp connection, sometimes it worked sometimes not. It took a while to track down but its all good now. Make sure you check voltage at the starter solinoid there is a fine voltage line there between starting and clickykykykykyky Hal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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