luhbo Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 ... It doesn't really add that much. Running my controller closed loop works better IMHO. 74908[/snapback] Exactly! Take a piece of ascending highway, put in 6th gear, "Wack" the throttle and let the controller do the rest! It's all that easy. If you want more but a WOT curve, then return, open the throttle only up to the next throttle break point and repeat the ceremony. If you want more but a (one point lower) curve, then return, open the throttle only up to the next throttle break point and repeat the ceremony. . (No dyno cooling time to look after! Just go on here...) . . What I forgot is the selection of the proper O2 targets for every cell. 13 everywhere is not a bad value to start with. I'm glad I bought mine! Jens, you'll like yours too Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I doubt I would have the feature in by 6 months. It would be the bottom of my list and there are many other features to be added. 75021[/snapback] So Cliff, if I understand correctly "closed loop" is a tuning feature, not a real time run feature. Is that correct? IOW, once you get it "tuned" in "closed loop" mode, you then disable that feature and run the map the "closed loop" created. Sort of an over the road tuning session with the "closed loop" feature substituting for the dyno link software. If I have that correct, then a question I have is how do you manage the fine throttle settings required while riding the bike? OTOH, if you put it on a dyno, is there a read out from you computer available to tell the operator where he is on the throttle setting? Seems with that info, running in closed loop, you can tune each throttle setting throughout the rev range. No need for the tuning link software. Let the computer tune itself closed loop. Correct? Is that what you meant earlier by (paraphrase) "no need for tuning link, let the "closed loop" setting do it."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex-Corsa Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Exactly! Take a piece of ascending highway, put in 6th gear, "Wack" the throttle and let the controller do the rest! It's all that easy. Hubert 75093[/snapback] What's the importance of going full throttle on 6th, isn't it enough on a 2nd or 3rd speed on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenslh Posted January 20, 2006 Author Share Posted January 20, 2006 Things I'll looking at soon are, multiple spark, 2 gas sensor inputs and independent closed loop for each cylinder, my own wide band gas sensor controller. 75021[/snapback] I'll be looking forward to see if there's any noticeable difference with the multiple spark, and you can sign me up for a wide band sensor controller - but are there any benefits to have from using seperate sensors and dual close loop ? I can understand the need for such a thing on a Ducati with the two cylinders running under different conditions (cooling + intake and exhaust lenght), but on a Guzzi where both cylinders are compareable regarding running conditions, it seems as overkill to me? /Jens www.guzzitech.dk/english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 There are different ways to implement "closed loop". The ECU thread went into great detail. With my implemention, the closed loop is build on top of the open loop mode. Closed loop generates a correction factor that is applied to the map. It may take a second or 2 to reach the required correction factor ( hence the top gear/uphill ). The tuning is basically to smooth the map such that the correction factor is the same all around, so the the closed loop does not need to find a new correction. The result of the tuning is the correction becomes 0. You could at this point disable closed loop and go open loop but there is no need. The closed loop becomes a diagnostic. If the correction is not 0, why. Two gas inputs from my perspective is about making the ECU more flexible. If the closed loop correction is different between cylinders it could tell you that a throttle balance is required while still maintaining optimal mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Cliff, I looked on your site for documentation on logging but did not find any. But I thought someone said your ECUs have built in logging or is it external logging to a computer or to the optimiser? Can you use the ECU's logging to log TPS, RPM, and O2, to help define the map? And if the logging is built into the ECU, can one use a simple wideband controller like the Innovation LC1 that does not have a gauge nor built in logging? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Currently the logging is to an external device. All parameters are output including the gas sensor voltage. The next generation of the Optimiser I will add the option for a SD flash memory card so you can log 32Mb or more and simply transfer the card to a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beauchemin Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Things I'll looking at soon are, multiple spark, 2 gas sensor inputs and independent closed loop for each cylinder, my own wide band gas sensor controller. Hi Cliff - I'm still very anxious for twin sensor inputs. Let me know when you have the new board design ready to go. My donor ECU is boxed and waiting to be sent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 What's the importance of going full throttle on 6th, isn't it enough on a 2nd or 3rd speed on? 75118[/snapback] Personally I see not that much importance of WOT runs over the whole RPM range, although some others do. You can start with about 25% throttle as well. Or 50 or 75%. Just make sure the gas grip position corresponds to a certain map cell. A WOT run in 2nd or 3rd would be just a bit quick. For perfect tuning results I think it is important that the engine runs more or less static while you manipulate the actual map cell. On the road or on a dyno the engine sweeps through a certain RPM range. 6th gear and going upside a hill flatens this sweep rate. It depends also on how fast your gas sensor reacts. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 A WOT run in 2nd or 3rd would be just a bit quick. 75204[/snapback] Yes, and the engine behaves differently. I have gotten no detectable pinging in lower gears. I have only had pinging between 4500RPMs and 5500RPMs in fifth and sixth gear going up hill at about 75 to 90 MPH. I suppose I could get enough load in 2nd or 3rd gear to make it ping, but I would need a VERY steep hill. A WBO2 sensor responds quickly, but the more time the engine spends in a map cell, I believe the O2 reading will be more accurate. If you use a dyno the idea is to provide enough load to hold it at the given throttle and rpm. Sixth Gear going up hill, possibly with the brakes on (but be careful) is the best way to replicate the dyno on the road. Lower RPM tuning may require a lower gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex-Corsa Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Currently the logging is to an external device. All parameters are output including the gas sensor voltage. With which programm can these log files be opened and which sources data- are being logged? (i.e. voltage, RPM, TP<...> TIA Yep Dave that explains it about rich/lean map US vs Europe, the Creedon chip I got is a bit richer than the EU mapped chips I have tried so far. hehe my diagnostic-tune tools are here . I just need to find some free time and peace of mind and start with it.Instaling the WBO2 will be cause of the drilling and so on , and I ain't got any bungs right now.Will update though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 With which programm can these log files be opened and which sources data- are being logged? (i.e. voltage, RPM, TP<...> THe dump itself produces a rather cryptic file like ~POR ~BOR ~My16M V3.85 C487 =110BD1415132B14C62D00000000230000004E =308DA03864700040000AE =00C3000BC02B6028E035E00B9014F =1101C1615792F14CD30000000002300000023 =308DA03864700040000AE =00C5A00BC02B6028E035E00B80178 This is then translated by the ECUController that is supplied with MyECU to a human readable form Map (0.0,0.0) RPM=200 Inj=9848us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.83V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=93 Bat=12.39V Map (0.0,0.0) RPM=200 Inj=9848us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.85V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=96 Bat=10.83V Map (0.5,0.0) RPM=671 Inj=6297us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.87V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=95 Bat=12.05V Map (0.5,0.0) RPM=680 Inj=6209us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.89V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=95 Bat=12.11V Map (0.5,0.0) RPM=691 Inj=6120us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.91V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=96 Bat=12.16V Map (0.5,0.0) RPM=697 Inj=6116us BaroAdj=110.9% o2Adj=100.0% o2[0] o2Target=0.00V o2=2.92V OilT=23.0C AirT=24.0C AirP=983mb Thro=103 Bat=12.22V There's also a comma delimited form suitable for pulling into a spreadshet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 ...Sixth Gear going up hill, possibly with the brakes on (but be careful).... 75236[/snapback] Yes, my rear brake has a fatal tendency to get stuck when used as a dyno simulator Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 ......I can understand the need for such a thing on a Ducati with the two cylinders running under different conditions (cooling + intake and exhaust lenght), but on a Guzzi where both cylinders are compareable regarding running conditions, it seems as overkill to me? /Jens www.guzzitech.dk/english 75125[/snapback] Unfortunately not! The biggest problem regarding this probably is the assymetric spark sequence (90° offset), so the filling of the right and left cylinder should be seriously affected by the resulting assymetric ressonance effects both in the airbox and the exhaust system. Just try to calculate the optimum length of the exhaust for a given RPM and you'll notice this. Next have a look in the airbox (so you still have one). Caused by the longitudinal cylinder offset it looks as if one snorkle gets less air then the other. BTW, the OEM map of the WM-ECU has a very differenciated offset map, so they see the need of such a possibility. And what about differences between the injectors? It would be interesting to see how they perform. All in all this is probably not overkill, it's just a must! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex-Corsa Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Next have a look in the airbox (so you still have one). Caused by the longitudinal cylinder offset it looks as if one snorkle gets less air then the other. BTW, the OEM map of the WM-ECU has a very differenciated offset map, so they see the need of such a possibility. Yep the left one seems to get less air (at least on mine) so how can you fix that? And what about differences between the injectors? It would be interesting to see how they perform.All in all this is probably not overkill, it's just a must! Yep , I you can see and record that with a programm such s VDSTS along with spark advance,manif. pressure,TP and some other factors as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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