Anyone dual-plug a V11?

[jtucker]

Just trying to find out if anyone has ever dual-plugged a V11 Sport (or similar) Guzzi. I'm considering having this work done over the winter, and I'm just curious as to what hoops I'll have to jump through if I go ahead with it.

 

TIA,

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[callison]

I seem to recall reading a post about a Scura on one of these forums recently. He had mild head work by Mike Smith and I believe, dual plugging. Dyno work (again going from memory, so this may not be correct) by Doug Lofgren. That particular bike is pumping around 104 HP I think. Dang! I wish I could remember the details. Check out the Guzzi reports at http://www.manleycycle.com/Tech.htm, that's where Doug works.

 

You might want to follow the following thread off of the Guzzi Forum in Australia too.

http://www.guzzi.com.au/forum/guzzi/msg/9787.html

 

Also check out the German sites, they seem to be in the thick of it.

http://www.daes-mototec.de/

http://www.dynotec.de/

http://www.stein-dinse.com/

 

and right here on this site:

http://www.v11lemans.com/html/links.htm

[RichMaund]

I just ordered a PCIII from Todd Egan. He has well tested maps for my bike. V11S with stock cross over and Mistrals. Stock airbox and filter. I can expect 6-8 ftlbs more torque in the midrange, it'll fill in the dip in the powercurve in the 4k range and a few more horsepower up top and in the middle. Better driveability as well. It is on the way now.

I plan to do before and after dyno pulls at the local Triumph shop when it comes in. I'll post results here in the forum.

For a plug & play device with almost no labor to install it, this may be money well spent. We'll see shortly!

[al_roethlisberger]

Porting/flowing my heads, along with possibly dual-plugging them is something I am considering for this winter, but we'll see.

 

I've talked with Mike Rich, who does the head for the Cooked Goose Land Speed Record Team, and he's super nice and will be happy to chat with you about the real benefits and trade-offs for some of these modifications.

 

Give him a call sometime:

 

Mike Rich Motorsports

21 Jerusalem Hollow Road

Manorville, NY 11949

631-874-7032

 

al

[jtucker]

I haven't ruled out a power commander at some point. I have one on my Ducati and it works great.

 

Dual plugging is a whole 'nuther ball of wax, though. Should allow the ignition to be retarded a bit. If nothing else, it will just provide for a better burn and better milage, but I'm banking on the fact that it will provide a bit more power too.

 

BTW, a Stucchi x-over will eliminate the 4K dip in the power curve as well. I'm convinced that the first mod any V11 owner should make is to replace the stock x-over with a Stucchi. I wish I would have done it long ago.

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[Mike Stewart]

I think that dual plugging will really benifit the Guzzi. I had thought of putting in an ignition amp. or a CD unit to lengthen the duration and voltage of the spark. I am toying with the idea of going through the motor and having the flywheel lighted, crank knife edged, carrello rods, balance, high compression pistons, and having the heads ported. Or I could just buy and 2003 Lemans?

 

I wish I had an unlimited bank account

 

Mike Stewart

[Guest J.R.]

I'm seriously considering the FBF 12:1 ratio pistons when my warranty runs out, and if I win the lottery.Agostini has the down pipes for the V11 with the crossover in front, and with the new slugs and flowed heads, you'd have one mean Guzzi.

[Guest Guest_dlaing]

I saw it done on a Sporti. The owner bought it that way, so he could not say it ran better. The one thing I did not like was that he had to remove part of the front fairing to access the extra plugs. On our bikes it might require removing or lifting the fuel tank. Not a biggy, but I would spend my money on the other mentioned items first. Another consideration, retarding the ignition may not be simple. To change the timing you may be able to increase the TPS mV or shim the engine posistion sensor??? Do get a power commander. Maybe they will come out with an R version to adjust the timing. But I would not hold my breath waiting for the PCIIIR.

How about a raceco big bore kit? I'd like to see FBF come up with some more great products for V11six speeds. Best of Luck!

[jtucker]

I am toying with the idea of going through the motor and having the flywheel lighted, crank knife edged, carrello rods, balance, high compression pistons, and having the heads ported.

My Carrillos are already on the way. I'm just trying to put a plan together on what else to do at the same time.

 

My understanding is that Ferracci has some goodies on the way (hi-comp pistons, oversize valves, etc) but I'm not sure what the status of that is.

 

I don't want to go overboard with it... this is my daily bike, and I put over 12K miles on it a year. I don't want too crazy with the motor, otherwise I'd be ordering up one of those Raceco cams that add about 20 HP.

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[al_roethlisberger]

Just as an update...

 

...I had a long conversation with Mike Rich today(which I would highly recommend to anyone considering these types of modifications) and although he laughed that he was probably talking himself out of another ~$300 of work(which I respect), his experience with dual-plugging our bikes has only really had real benefits on bikes pushing beyond what would traditionally be our redline, at peak power....

 

Now he did say that there is some benefit to retarding detonation, but that can be addressed in a number of different fashions such as type of fuel, and temperature plug choice.

 

But he had a wealth of information, experience, and recommendations based on what your goals are, and was more than happy to chat about it at length.

 

 

For me, I was stressing reliability, economy, while with that in mind trying to gain performance.... an everyday street bike.

 

His recommendation was his "Stage II" porting, which is porting the heads, and reworking the valve guides. Additionally, he recommended shaving the head to increase compression by 1/2 a point, as Guzzi is notoriously optimistic with their compression figures where his experience has consistently shown their 9:1 really being in the 8:1 range. So an increase in 1/2 a point will be well within the safe range of everyday useability, but really buy quite a bit in low to mid-range power in combination with his port job.

 

While every bike is different, he estimates a real increase of about 3hp per cylinder, which is significant. And that power, based on the owner's requirements, is tuned for where you want it... in my case in the midrange, while not sacrificing top-end.

 

He says he'll increase flow from about 90cfm on average to about 116cfm.

 

His pricing is about $700 for "Stage I" which is just the porting, and $800 for the "Stage II". There is a "Stage III" which is $1300, but I forget what all it entailed, and he said it was geared for a race application, not what I was looking for.

 

Oh, and for anyone still interested in dual-plugging, he's got a kit/solution designed that will work better than past solutions which had relied on one of the cylinder stud holes for the auxiliary plug. The past solution had compromised the seal of the cylinder at times because the stud had been replaced and stretched non uniformly with the other cylinder studs, but his new modification takes another approach which he can explain when you call.

 

But based on my conversation, I don't think that the "gee whiz" factor of dual-plugging will buy me much, and may even prove to be a reliability liability.. as well as added expense and difficulty to dial-in.

 

So I think I'll go with the port job, get my x-over on, air-box eliminator... and pick up a PC-III in the next months... and that should about do-it for hot-rodding.

 

Then we'll figure out how to wring every drop of fuel from our funky tanks, and I'll be set

 

al

[jtucker]

Yeah... I already spoke to Mike, and he will have my heads shortly. Interestingly, I didn't get the same read on his dual-plug opinion that you did... and I still plan on going ahead with that. My understanding is that dual-plugging doesn't add much to the dyno chart, but that it does tend to quicken up the throttle response, and also provide for an increase in fuel economy.

 

In addition to the head work that Mike does, he also has a number of other goodies... such as valve springs, and pushrods in either CroMo or Titanium flavors.

 

My bike is in the shop now... first thing that will be done is that I'm having the right head sent out to be refinished (cleanup job required because of my crash this summer). After that, the heads are off to Mike Rich for his work.

[callison]

I had this discussion with Mike Rich last year and have forgotten most of it, but, he stated that as long as the heads were capable of being flowed (there's a lot of varation from the factory, apparently the seat grinding has been done by hand for a number of years), he could improve the heads. I recall a figure of about 12 horsepower per jug for flowing and 3 more for dual porting, but I'm pretty certain that was in reference to the Stage III porting. The heads for the V11 may be and probably are, better than those of the earlier Sports. The earlier heads rated at 96cfm stock, 112cfm after porting by RaceCo and the same heads - 140cfm after Mike Rich for the LSR bike. He certainly knows his trade. There is a Scura running around with the full stage II and dual plugging and I remember reading about it on one of these forums. A very strong bike. One thing is for certain, for dual plugging, you will need the services of a shop that can modify the map in the ECU and dyno time if you're going to take advantage of the dual plugging. A Power Commander is of no use here, it can't alter the timing. I think Dave Lofgren did the work on the super duper Scura for the maps. http://www.manleycycle.com/Tech.htm#MotoGuzzi

[jtucker]

One thing is for certain, for dual plugging, you will need the services of a shop that can modify the map in the ECU and dyno time if you're going to take advantage of the dual plugging. A Power Commander is of no use here, it can't alter the timing. I think Dave Lofgren did the work on the super duper Scura for the maps. [

Yeah... adjusting the timing is the only thing I haven't figured out yet. Doug @ Manley is my top contender at the moment. Personally, I'm hoping that a PCIIIr would be available for the 15M computer by that time, but I'm certainly not holding my breath for that.

 

I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I guess...

[al_roethlisberger]

Yeah, with all that in mind, and from talking to Mike... from my perspective(which is a definite, "set it and leave it alone" point of view ), it sounded like the benefit of dual-plugging wasn't really enough to have to justify all the tinkering needed to dial it in. He was saying that above 7500rpm you would see a few more HP, but in day-to-day riding it wouldn't make much difference.

 

Economy and retarding detonation would be improved of course by dual-plugging, but he also said that could be addressed in a number of different ways as well.

 

So, I guess it all boils down to how willing one is to spend time and money to wring out that last little bit of performance, and if one just wants the nifty factor as well.

 

Since I have limited funds and want to definitely lean toward the KISS and reliability end of the spectrum... I think I'll pass on the dual-plugging for now, although it definitely was tempting and sounded nifty

 

I think the porting will give me the best "bang" in this area for the buck, and things like dual-plugging start to get into a region of "diminishing returns"... buying new coils, getting a new map, wires, plugs, the extra $3-400 work on the heads... *sigh*... yeah, I can't do that for an extra 5HP at the top end ...now if I end up with detonation problems, we may be revisiting this!

 

I'll be interested to hear how it works out though, esp when/if the new PC that can change timing comes out

 

One thing I have considered though is to have him work the heads to accept dual-plugs, then just actually install them later... i.e. plug the second plug-hole until later. But who knows.

 

al

[jtucker]

One thing I have considered though is to have him work the heads to accept dual-plugs, then just actually install them later... i.e. plug the second plug-hole until later.  But who knows.

That's my plan at the moment. I would imagine that you could just leave a spark plug in the 2nd spot and just don't wire it up until it comes time to install new coils and remap the ignition.