slowkitty
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Posts posted by slowkitty
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could the friction plates be in backwards? if I remember right
the raised flange side goes to the rear/tranny side.You mean the raised portion points to the front of the bike? if so that is what I did.
Andy
Your friction plate(s) in photo post #8 is backwards. Turn raised side pointing to gearbox like my photo in post #20
-KG-
KG,
You are right, the raised surface of the friction plate I have been installing frontwards. I will try facing backwards and see what happens.
Andy
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To complete the picture, here's a pic of the hub removed from the Scura's single plate system:
This is a pic of the twin disc hub from the internet (which I have mounted into the gearbox):
Compared the thickness with the twin plate hub now mounted in my gear box; extra thickness necessary cos of the 2-plate system:
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I hope I haven't miss read and redundified here
the cup, (#5) or receiving hole that the push rod goes in to is different from 5 speed to 6. I have in my hand a cup from a v11 5 speed with a hole measuring 6.7 mm dia. I also have an oem Tenni cup that measures 8.75 mm.
(can't believe I'm saying this but) just pull your rod out and see if it fits into the hole
Hi, footgoose,
The pic of the pushrod inserted into the bowl / cup is :
Seems to be no issue with the fit.
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To clarify, you have replaced a twin-plate clutch (two friction plates, a steel intermediate plate, steel flywheel, and "push-button")?
The push rod and input hub are held over from the Scura single-plater?
Dear Docc,
Yes, the intended replacement is from a single plate clutch system (left) to a twin disc system (right).
The parts (actual) can be compared:
The pushrod is from the Scura, the hub is from Gutsibits. This is the hub with pushrod installed:
This is the bowl or cup that Gutsibits also supplied:
The Scura system has a pushrod recess built into the pressure plate. Rather elegant.
Reverse of the cup, if that is material.
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Dear Docc
In that link, the context of that discussion was on the installation of a RAM "5-speed unit in a V11 if they have the correct transmission input hub."
Thanks for the input (no pun intended .. LOL).
The mystery thickens. I may well remove the flywheel and start all over again. Sigh.
Andy
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It is the tip, as I recall.
Where it engages the "cup."
From the link above:
"I did get the end of the clutch push rod machined down at a local shop and everything engaged as it should."
Hi, Docc,
I saw that. It did not make sense to me cos the V11Rosso is a twin-plater in the first place? This from the parts catalogue:
In any case,it seemed that in that post, the owner reduced the length of the rod than lengthened it.
Andy
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Thinking back, I recall that both the gearbox input hub and the engagement of the pushrod differs between the single plate (Scura) clutch and the twin plate.
Which input hub are you using with the new twin-plate clutch?
Hi,
I am using this now ...
You are right, the Scura's stock hub is lower (in thickness) than this hub cos it need only engage one friction disc than twin.
How does the engagement of the push rod differ?
Andy
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could the friction plates be in backwards? if I remember right
the raised flange side goes to the rear/tranny side.You mean the raised portion points to the front of the bike? if so that is what I did.
Andy
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Dear all,
I am really at my wits' end here. Removed the gearbox and the springs all seemed to be properly seated. I even replaced the friction plates with the "thinner" 7.5mm ones from MG Cycles, no luck. There is no complete neutral when the clutch lever is pulled in, such that I can rotate the rear wheel freely.
Some pics are attached.
Can anyone tell if the flywheel is from a 5-speed or 6-speed? Does it even matter?
Took out the pushrod to make sure that I am not missing any washers etc.
What I will do now is to measure the length of the pushrod actuated extension when the clutch lever is pulled in against the compression of the springs in a vice. This is to see if there is a possibility that the pushrod was not being actuated sufficiently to compress the springs and disengage the friction plates.
Am I correct to say that the pushrod is in contact with the pressure plate "bowl" by the fact that there is tension in the clutch lever?
Thanks for the views, guys, keep the advice coming.
Andy
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Thanks for all the views. I just learnt that the donor bike for the clutch was a 99 V11 (in green).
I guess I have to tear down and reseat the springs.
Is there any sense in alternating the springs? To get that intermediate feel of hard/softness in the clutch pull?
andy
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Dear Tinus
Thank you for chipping in.
Yes, the receiver cup is installed; it was omitted from the pic, as were the hubs. I reckon that without the receiver cup, the clutch lever will not even have any tension since the pushrod will not be pushing against it (and the pressure plate/springs)?
The unseated spring theory sounds plausible. Something I have to bear in mind but I am really trying to exhaust all options before re-opening the transmission again. I glued all of the springs to the flywheel and then attached the pressure plate. Arguably it could be a dislodgement there.
andy
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as Docc said you need to use the twin plate hub.... AND the actuating (?) rod. I think this part might be a different length.
Yes, I used the hub for a twin. I definitely did not use the single plater hub which is shallower.
Twin with hub installed.
The single plater and the twin comparison
The pushrod is the same as the single plater I think. This was covered in another post. In any case, I have tension when I pull the clutch lever, indicating the pushrod is pushing on the clutch pressure plate that in turn is pushing on the pressure plate.
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Dear docc,
I used the correct hub, i think.
I will post some pics. How the heck do i post pics without paying photobucket?cheers
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Hi, docc,
Thanks for the input (no pun intended). There is no disengagement on mine, period. Nonetheless, it is something to think about. Will see what else comes in before I tear down the clutch (again!).
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Dear all,
I have a Scura. Yes, the one that is prone to a grenading clutch.
So I decided to convert to a twin-clutch. Got a used set from Gutsibits.
I installed the clutch. It came with new springs (the 5-ring ones) that are stronger. I also have new SD friction plates and intermittent plate.
After reinstallation, the clutch does not disengage. There is tension in the clutch lever, which means that the pressure plate is being actuated. So, what happened after was:
1. I changed to the original softer (6-ring) springs. Softer pull on the clutch lever, no disengagement still.2. I read that the SD friction plates are thicker, so I machined skimmed it down to under the 8mm thickness of the stock plates. No disengagement.
3. Checked that the intermittent plate is flat and not warped.
4. I have bled and changed the fluid out in the clutch master cylinder too.
The clutch still does not disengage. I am at my wits end.
Contemplating doing a Non Destructive Testing on my aluminium flywheel and then reinstalling the original single plater. Or look or CNC a steel flywheel.
Views, gents?
Andy
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I did change out the springs, thinking that it might be a good thing to change them out given the effort to get there.
So I guess that I may well have harder springs too. -
Pic of the parts attached, less the boss and the cup.
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When I did the clutch on my LeMans, I had a few sets of used parts available. The pushrods were identical in dimension, but there was variation elsewhere. The depths of the cups that sit in the pressure plate were different - so were the thicknesses of throwout bearings and washers. All of those differences make it tricky to get the right total length between the clutch piston and the pressure plate. And before you ask, I don't know what the right total length is...
The problem with mine was a partial release. I could tell that the surfaces were rubbing with the clutch lever pulled in. I had a little success by adjusting the screw-plunger on the clutch lever. But then I went too far and the fluid would not return to the reservoir when it heated up (clutch lever got rock solid with no free-play).
Hopefully a lever adjustment, extra washer, or thicker bearing will work for you. If not, read on...
Eventually, I ended up taking the engine out again and alternating 5 stiff and 5 normal clutch springs. As I mentioned above, it's possible that at least part of my problem was the springs not being seated correctly. If you are not certain that the springs are totally inside the wells of both flywheel and pressure plate, it might be worth pulling the engine again. Also, if you got 10 new stiff springs, I think that is too much for the hydraulic system.
Hi, thank you for the feedback.
I had some thought and I was wondering, if the springs were not seated properly, will I get the "clang clang clang" of the clutch?
I will try the least intrusive method of solving this first.
The parts that were changed were a complete set of twin-plater clutch from Gutsibits.
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[Yeah - a more detailed description could help - or if you've mis-stated something, you could correct it. It's not clear to me whether you have neutral or not. Can you roll the bike freely with engine off and transmission in neutral?]
The answer is yes.
My apologies, the problem is that when I put the bike in gear (from neutral) with the clutch lever fully in, there is no complete disengagement of the gear, to the point that the bike will stall.
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I think he has mis stated the problem. Seems the clutch isnt disengaging due to the pushrod from the single plate clutch now being too short.
Ciao
Yes, you are right. I have clarified my predicament. .. too early in the morning when I posted the thread.
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Dear all,
Appreciate some help here.
Background: I completed a Scura conversion to a twin plater. Got the full set of V11 parts from Gutsibits, and I installed it. The issue now is that I have lost my neutral. When I put the bike in neutral, the clutch engages and the bike stalls, even with full clutch in.
[amendment to the above: What I meant was that when I put the bike in gear, even with full pull on the clutch lever, the clutch does not disengage]
I have read this ... http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19808&hl=%2Bclutch+%2Bpush+%2Brod
Scud seems to had the same problem.
Reading online, the consensus seems to be that there is no different pushrod for a twin plate V11 and a single plater. Otherwise a loner pushrod may be the solution.
My mech and I removed the clutch master cylinder, and he thinks that the clutch cup is now recessed, such that there is no contact with the piston of the master cylinder (see the attached pic) i.e. no actuation. An easier fix may be that of putting a thicker bearing or shims to push the cup out?
A pic of the clutch cup is attached.Any other suggestion before I go the more drastic route of disassembly? Even if I disassemble, assuming that all parts are right and properly fitted, what can be changed to improve the situation?
Thank you.
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You suspect a dud TPS , do you know how to test it ?
Hi, my suspicion came about when I swapped out a mate's TPS for the one on my bike. Marked difference.
What's the difference in cost?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Internet wisdom place the Cycyleworks' at US$89, while the Guzzi part is over US$200 I reckon.
So no one tried the Cyclework's on a V11?
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Dear all,
I have a suspect dud TPS. Expensive part from Guzzi.
The outcome of my internet search is:
The V11 Sport uses a Marelli PF3C (Guzzi p/n 01530500). It seems that certain Ducatis uses the same part.
There is a cheaper alternative here https://ca-cycleworks.com/pf3c, but with the express caveat that it is only for California and not other Guzzi models.
Other folks have used Harley's TPS, but I like to the new one from cycyworks if that is possible. Anyone tried? Appreciate the feedback. Otherwise I may be the guinea pig here.
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Inability to disengage clutch after twin-disc conversion
in Technical Topics
Posted
Dear all,
KG hit the problem on the head. The friction plate side with raised lip has to face rearwards, and not forward. With hindsight, it is clear that the raised lip (raised about 5mm) would contact the pressure plate and has the effect of reducing the reach of the push rod correspondingly.
Having gone through the exercise, I must say that I have learnt a lot from you guys, and I wish to thank all of your for the help.
Will post a pic of the running bike when I have time to put it together.
Thank you.
Andy