Warm Fuzzies?

[zagato]

Greetings, I recently bought a '04 V11 Naked with a Power Commander and M4 exhausts and while the bike is certainly fun to ride (80 mph sweepers are great) I find it rather un-nerving to throw hard into tight corners due to its weight (570+ lbs) and its rather high seating position. I went on a ride last week with friends (speedo quit at 3.3K miles) and they left me in every corner (on their modern sport Japanese bikes)- I just never felt confident really laying it over. Is it just me? I even went wide in one forest road right hander and slowing all that weight down was an exercise in faith. I'm no speed freak and thought I was riding within my abilities but I get the feeling that with the V11's nod to touring (as in 'sport/tourer') I should forget any notions of keeping up with Kawasakis that are 130+ lbs lighter than me or do you find that with work you are able to really get a lot out of this machine in the twisties? I'm not complaining but I felt at times more confident on my '72 Honda 500/4. I'm a dedicated fan of all things mechanically Italian so I won't be discouraged very easily. Impressions of the steed? Regards, -zagato

[dlaing]

I went from a Honda CT90 (trying to keep up with smaller, faster XL, XR, YZ, RM, etc.) to a much better Honda SL125 (my first street legal), to a Honda 500F, to a Moto Guzzi V65SP, to a V11S.

I certainly scraped more pegs on the 500F, but it was nowhere near the fun of the V65SP.

And the V65SP was relaxed at over 100MPH while the 500F was less stable. But I missed the combination of kick and electric start ...and what an easy bike to kick over, too!

But none of the bike's compared to the V11S.

No, it is not the easiest bike in the world to handle, but half the fun is that it is not easy to handle.

I too have trouble keeping up with others, even some on El Dorados and Ambassadors , and sometimes think if I had a water duck or one of the 2007 beemers I could keep up.

But they always wait for me at the crossroads and I have not swung wide into the oncoming lane since the first year or two of bike ownership when I made some dumb mistakes.

Some of what has helped has been to do work to the suspension.

The bike's dry weight is claimed to be under 500#, so it is not nearly as bad as many other sport touring bikes.

You can get some excellent advice from forum members here on suspension and handlebar setup.

Generally, to make the bike more nimble, you may find wider and higher handlebars will help.

Lowering the front end can help dramatically, and despite fears, it should not make the bike less stable.

Raising the rear can also help, again contrary to fears of making less stable.

Of course you can go to far in any direction.

Correct spring weight and sag will also give you more confidence.

Tire opinions are all over the place.

But Pirellis and Metzelers both help the nimbleness of the bike compared to most of the competition.

If you got money, Ohlins shocks and forks help as does lighter wheels.

But the increased speed ratio per dollar decreases as you spend more money.

The biggest investment increase, after suspension adjustment, may come from track school!

I have seen riders slower than I, go to track school, come back, and then I can no longer safely keep up with them.

A Guzzi is not for everyone, but there are certainly ways to go faster safely, without swinging wide in turns

[mdude]

dlaing is abs right, start a suspension project.

I had the same problems in the beginning with a bike running wide on corners with no bite at all on the front wheel. First thing I did was to tighten the preload on teh rear spring nearly all the way home (under seat, the studded wheel on the spring). That made a world of difference.

Then I backed off on Comp settings rear and both Comp and Rebound setting front after advice on these pages (do Suspension Setup search). They were set rock hard from the factory.

Then I changed the fork springs to stiffer Wilbers progressive. It really is a different bike now.

Shame I crashed it......

[Dan M]

Dave hit it on the head, Dial in your suspension and get good tires. The long frame V11s require a "heavy hand" to get them way over in a corner. If your suspension is right and tires sticky you can have plenty of confidence, you just need to muscle it a little. It will never steer as quickly as modern japanese sport bikes but they don't feel as planted on the 100mph sweepers either. When I first got mine in 2005 I could not corner as well as on my BMW which weighs at least 100 lbs more. After setting it up and getting comfortable, the V11 is by far the most fun bike I've owned.

[Baldini]

...I recently bought a '04 V11....I find it rather un-nerving to throw hard into tight corners due to its weight (570+ lbs) and its rather high seating position....

 

Guzzis take a fair bit of getting used to if you've not had one before, but can be got to go pretty good, however, tight corners is not natural habitat & hustling there is always going to unsettle a V11. They are, as you note, heavy & with a highish seat. There is also driveline backlash, a pronounced rearward wt bias, snatchy fuelling & sometimes a bit of a nomans land in lower gears. But as Dave says they can be got better. If you're pushing in corners you really have to get as much wt as you can onto the front or they push wide. Lowering front helps a lot. Correct springs & suspension settings also. But tank design means it's difficult to really get up over front wheel. Going down to a 170 rear from 180 improves turn-n imbalance. Good tyres (what's on yours?) give confidence & aid steering & /or stability. For confidence, try the stickier the better, but they don't last long. Is fuelling set up good? they can be got pretty smooth with dyno set up but can be very snatchy if badly sorted (esp distracting in tight going). Above all, thing is to ride them smooooothly. They don't respond well to inconsistent, ragged inputs (especially on the brakes) or stop start going.

 

KB

[Guest ratchethack]

I'm not complaining but I felt at times more confident on my '72 Honda 500/4. I'm a dedicated fan of all things mechanically Italian so I won't be discouraged very easily. Impressions of the steed? Regards, -zagato

Welcome, Zagato. Always a pleasure to have a new Guzzista join the fold.

 

However. . .

 

Um, if your post above isn't complaining , may we consider that you've been at least somewhat unpleasantly surprised ?

 

What part of your expectations seem to've been unmet, Zagato?

 

Many Pro's (of which I decidedly ain't), recommend suspension setup as a first order of business, primary requirement of handling, as alluded to above. I happen to agree. There are many many posts on this on this Forum. This would be a good start at achieving wot the Guzzi is capable of. Without it, IMHO you don't have a prayer.

 

However, suspension setup cannot alter fundamental attributes or override the laws of physics. There are many hereabouts who seem to be chasing Hyperbike performance with a hopelessly outmoded dreadnought of a motorcycle that isn't remotely in the same class. Many seem to be in perpetual "keep up with the Joneses" mode, chasing a fantasy by trying to make their Guzzi into the proverbial "silk purse" -- something it can never be -- regardless of wot's done to it. (from a previous thread in response to another poster):

 

. . . you can bolt a Lotus Elise suspension into a Kenworth, but y'er Kenworth is never gonna handle like an Elise. It'll handle like a Kenworth with a badly mismatched suspension....

 

. . . I hate to burst the bubble of y'er extreme fantasy here, but if a "silk purse" to you means something close to "modern" World Class performance (which I reckon most of us ain't after, or we'd have bought World Class performance motorcycles to start with) the reality is that there isn't enough money or unobtanium on this planet to bolt on y'er Guzzi in replacement of other stuff to transport a V-11 into the same solar system, let alone to the same planet. Not remotely within an intergalactic chip-shot.

 

Let's see if I can think of a few features of the V-11 Guzzi not possible to shoehorn into a modern World Class performance ballpark, even with industrial hydraulics. Nay, there's too many to mention. Let's just take two -- weight and rwhp. It's impossible to think of vehicle performance in terms of chassis tuning without considering weight, and without thinking of power-to-weight ratio. We'll use a '07 Yamaha YZF-R1 as a yardstick for modern World Class performance, since they're both "open class" bikes, though the Yammerhammer is giving up 140+cc to the Guzzi:

 

My Sport weighs 530 lbs. with a half-tank of fuel. YZF-R1, let's say 400 lb. That's ~25% less weight.

 

My Sport is probably putting out somewhere near 80 rwhp. YZF-R1, probably 160 rwhp. That's 100% greater rwhp.

 

That's a power to weight ratio of .15 f'er the V-11 and .4 f'er the YZF-R1 -- a power to weight delta of 270%!

 

Now without going too far into cattle-prodding such numerous and undeniable elephants in the corner as the considerable rearward weight bias of shaft drive and the horrendous mass of an additional 20 lb. bevel transmission of unsprung weight in the rear hub of the already relatively very heavy Guzzi wheels just yet, let's stick with the basics and look at what some might consider "common sense" in terms of "real world" performance limitations of the Guzzi f'er the road relative to a modern World Class performance bike.

Was any of the above unknown to you before you got your Guzzi out on the road amongst Jap hyperbikes and had trouble keeping up?? I reckon if y'er objective with your new motorcycle is to chase hyperbikes, you got the wrong motorcycle, my friend. . .

[zen_kick]

I too just recently picked up a V11 (2004 Ballabio) and I know of what you speak when you talk about feeling skittish throwing it into corners. My other bikes are a 76 /6 and a 74 LAPD and I can toss each around like it were a 200lb vespa (ok, I have one of those too).

 

So far I am finding a few things limiting my sense of safety in handling on the Ballabio:

 

1 - Jumpiness of throttle - I don't yet have the muscle memory built (or levers adjusted correctly) for clutch pull point or thottle engage location. End result is I sometimes rev before engaging or lag a bit - both affecting the smoothness of my turns. Solution: tweaking the control settings, picking up a shorter set of levers (see group buy offer elsewhere in this forum), lots of practice until my hands remember how far to pull and twist to make the corners smoother.

 

2 - Tire type - bike came with stock Metzlers which, especially at cold temps feel slippery to me. I fortunately ran over a nail last week and toasted the rear tire. My local shop recommended a set of Michelin Pilots which I understand are up there with Pirelli Diablo's as the prefered tire of choice for this bike. I'll report back when they are actually on.

 

3 - Limited handlebar turn radius - I find that the Ballabio stops turing far before my other bikes do. I expect the thought is that turns should be made by leaning but I have to say it's a pain when trying to turn the bike around in a parking spot.

[Baldini]

...However, suspension setup cannot alter fundamental attributes. There are many hereabouts who seem to be chasing Hyperbike performance with a hopelessly outmoded dreadnought of a motorcycle that isn't remotely in the same class. ...chasing a fantasy by trying to make their Guzzi into the proverbial "silk purse" -- something it can never be -- regardless of wot's done to it....

 

Trampling on my dreams again Ratchethack!

 

On good tyres & sorted fueling/suspension (ish) V11 (Scura is my experience) will perform well enough on medium twisty roads to live w/Jap sportsbikes - when going has some regard for personal safety & other road users. Before limiting characteristics of bike really affect pace, for me, it's too fast for the road whatever you're on. You have to ride Guzzi smoothly & to it's strengths which is mostly the torquey nature of the motor (say 60-70Ftlb compared with 70-80Ftlb for Jap litre sportsbike?) - it's not all about HP & the Guzzi motor is very flexible & forgiving. Useable torque is available consistantly across the rev range from even as low as 2,500rpm, I find I can happily stay in a couple of gears while Japs are running thru the box. It makes for a hugely enjoyable, relaxing ride on any good long run over medium twisty roads. Very tight (say 10-30mph) corners & stop start going does not suit Guzz, nor do last minute choices & indecision (chassis isn't as forgiving as motor!).

 

You have to let it move around a bit under you & not fight it, but if you really push V11 hard it struggles as Ratchethack says, with all the limitations mentioned plus a pretty flexible frame. Sometimes my old Tonti gives me more confidence. Don't expect to ride it like a Jap four - it doesn't work - it needs a different style: smoothness & consistency. Sort the V11, learn it's strengths (don't try & impose yourself on it - you'll never win), learn how to get along with it, & let it get along & it might surprise you (& your mates).

KB

[Baldini]

....1 - Jumpiness of throttle....2 - Tire type ...3 - ...turns should be made by leaning...

 

 

Everything he says!

 

Re tyres: If your tyres are worn or poor originals, changing them can transform the feel of the bike. If you want a really neutral, secure consistent feeling Conti SportAttacks are great (when new, but handling goes off with miles). Diablos are v consistent. For real quick turning & grip Miochelin Power2CT's.

 

KB

[Dan M]

Zagato says he won't be discouraged very easily, but Ratchet is on the job. Keep hammering at him ratch.

 

If you value cutting edge technology, razor sharp handling, quarter mile and lap times, maybe the Japanese bike is what you want. If you are as you say a dedicated fan of all mechanical things Italian, and are no speed freak, then your purchase of a quirky Italian bike is the right one. It isn't the fastest or the best handling. It is however quite capable under most circumstances when dialed in properly and operated by a competent rider. You won't see dozens of them every time you ride and it has an element of "cool" rarely found regardless of country of origin.

 

Don't be discouraged, dial it in proper and get to know it. I often look at more modern, better performing bikes then I take the LeMans out and forget all about them.

[Guest bassguy1111]

I had the same reaction when I first rode my '00 Sport. I've been riding an EV for a few years now, and the tonti-frame bikes just seem to feel more stable and predictable in the twisties. I had a bit of an epiphany riding the Sport a couple of days ago. I found that if I trimmed speed entering a curve slightly later than I would the EV and then began my lean a little later than might be intuitive, the bike seemed to get into a better rhythm. The '99-'01 Sports have an even steeper rake than the later ones so they turn that much quicker.

 

As some of the earlier posts eluded to, this bike relies on the lean more than the turn. And I still maintain that a well-ridden Goose will hang with pretty much anything (within reason!!) Just don't kill yourself to prove a point. Most of the bikes that get winched out the canyons are very nice high tech Japanese machines of most superior technology.

[Guest ratchethack]

Most of the bikes that get winched out the canyons are very nice high tech Japanese machines of most superior technology.

Sounds like you ride some o' the same roads I do, BG. On Mt. Palomar, they've just started ramping into the usual Summer weekend caravans of meat wagons and tow trucks with extra-long winch cables. . . They run 'em every weekend all Summer long. The locals 're none too pleased. . .

 

Ever get an eyeload up close o' wot's left o' one o' those nice shiny new hyperbikes after they drag it back up a 200 foot granite cliff? They look like fairly expensive boat anchors . . .

[Ballabio Bertie]

Got to say that when I picked up my Ballabio in September and rode it into the rush hour traffic I thought I,d made a very expensive mistake.They arent for everyone,(previous owner only kept it for 2 weeks!!)but by the time I'd ridden it home (just over 500 miles on the map - but it stretched out to 1300) Iwas completely hooked! Just ride it ,then ride it some more ,get to know its limits and its strengths - persevere ,its worth it!!Dont worry about keeping with the Jap rockets just enjoy what you,ve got!

[Guest Mattress]

I bought a cafe sport last summer (its like a ballabio). I too didn't feel too comfortable and still don't. But I did play around with the handlebar position and found an immediate improvement, especially at low to medium speeds. If you have handlebars you might want to go for a ride with some allen wrenches and try different positions for feel. Probably best to do this after you have optimised your suspension sag.

 

I'm pretty much still a motorcycling neophyte and hope to do a track day to improve confidence with cornering.

[Greg Field]

Guzzis like "dynamic tension" when cornering. I use the throttle to keep the chassis jacked up while braking. Seems to help more on the Eldo than on the V11 but it does help on the latter, too. THey hate violent on/off throttle and brakes transitions.