About to take on first self service!!

[mznyc]

Dumbie about to take on first home tune-up.Torque heads,adjust valves,balance TB's,check/adjust TPS,change oil/filter/clean mesh filter in that order.TwinMax,gaskets,oil access tool on order.

Iv'e got some stupid questions,I'm sure I'll have some more once I get into it,but a couple to get me going.

I'll try to take as many pics along the way as well as document what my experience is.I hope to put them all together in one article to help other dumbies like me.We have a lot of great info on all these procedures here but they are kinda spread out over different posts and is a little mind boggling for rookie tuners,especially when you do a search and get a lot of results.

Question #1:In Ian Johnston's article about Throttle Body balancing, http://www.obairlann.net/reaper/motorcycle...zi/balance.html

He dosen't mention disconnecting the the TB connecting rod.Does anybody not do this,is this necessary,or was this just not mentioned by mistake ?Where do I disconnect it?

Question #2 In Lex's article , http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm,

Doing one cylinder at a time ,I rotate wheel till I see S for the left side in the sight hole,but this is not necessarily TDC?I have to make sure that both valves are closed?Meaning keep spinning wheel till I see the S AND both valves are closed?I then torque heads and adjust valves and move on to the right?

Tracy Martin, http://www.guzzitech.com/tdc-tracy.html , has a different approach and says

"Watch the rocker arms on the cylinder that you will be adjusting the valves on. You will see them move up/down as you turn the engine over. You are trying to find the point at which BOTH rocker arms move (the intake valve is just starting to open and the exhaust valve is almost closed). This is called "valve overlap" and it is the position in which the piston is at TDC with both valves slightly open for that cylinder."

they seem to contradict one another,one says they should be closed,the other says they should be slightly open and almost closed.Please help clarify this for me or add

This will get me started,I'm sure i'll have hat in hand later on with more dumb questions,

Thanks,

Michael

[Guest ratchethack]

Michael, here's my take, FWIW:

 

1. Ian J's is still one of the better write-ups on TB balace, IMHO. The throttle sync. rod is disconnected at the right-hand end by carefully popping off the flexible plastic spherical joint with a screwdriver. Once you do it (do it correctly -- don't bend the rod!), it will from that point forward (literally) be a snap.

 

2. Lex's write-up is likewise one of the better ones, IMHO. The S for left and D for right marks on the flywheel always indicate TDC for the appropriate cylinders, but you need to get each on the compression stroke to set the valves. The compression stroke comes up every OTHER time the flyweel indicates TDC, so the first time you see the letter, you've got a 50/50 chance it's on the right stroke. With spark plugs out, rotating the crank in the correct counter-clockwise direction, with a wrench on the crank nut (alternator cover off) you can feel compression building at the spark plug hole with a finger as you rotate the crank. This is the compression stroke leading up to the TDC you want. The proof check for TDC on compression stroke is that you can feel that BOTH intake and exhaust rockers on that cylinder have "play" in them -- therefore, both valves are closed. With the appropriate flywheel mark in the inspection window, this means you've got compression TDC for that cylinder and you have it ready for valve adjustment on that cylinder.

 

I just took a read of the Tracy Martin link at GuzziTech. No wonder you're confused. He's expressed this incorrectly and has contradicted himself. This is wrong and should have been removed from the site immediately. He's correct when he says both intake and exhaust valves must be closed -- but this can't be true if one is "starting to open", and the other is "almost closed"! This is the exhaust-intake "overlap" TDC! DO NOT attempt to adjust the valves unless the correct mark is in the window, AND you ALREADY detect a measurable clearance between the rocker and BOTH intake and exhaust valves -- again, this means they're both closed!

 

NOTE: WRT torquing heads, don't neglect the inboard-most 10 mm socket-nut on each head. They're located beneath o-ringed "covers" on each head, which in turn, are located beneath the rocker spindle assemblies, which must be removed for access. It's a little tedious, but you gotta do it. When torquing a head, before removing the rocker spindle assemblies, make sure that cylinder is on TDC at compression stroke, so (again) both valves are closed, and there's no valve spring load on the rockers. Just be careful removing the rocker assemblies, and set every part aside IN ORDER so's to get the complete assemblies back in correct order. The order of such things as the shims and end-float springs are important.

 

IMPORTANT: Torque the heads and carefully torque the rocker assemblies back in place BEFORE you set the valves, not AFTER!!

Hope this helps. Have fun!

[mznyc]

Thanks RH,

As always great information and thankfully no shortage or shortcuts of text!

I think I grasp what you are saying about TDC, and confirming that the 2 TDC finding opinions are contradictory helps a lot.(OK I'm not completly crazy! )

Is there a TPS adjusting procedure that is a little more up to date than Carl's( http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/tps/TPS.html )?I t seems like this applies to the older Sport models and is confusing to me.He also syncs the TB after setting TPS but Ian suggests doing after adjusting TB's.What's the consensus on this?

Thanks,

Michael

What Hump?

[Guest ratchethack]

What Hump?

I just saw the movie again last night for the first time in probably 5 years. Wot a Classic. "Walk this way, please."

What's the consensus on this?

Consensus?! Why not just get the opinion of some Wing-nut -- such as myself f'r instance -- out here on the Forum and think of it as a target, open for any and all to fire away at will. Surely the most egregious lies and misinformation will draw SOME heat. . . Sit back and see who says wot about wot I say, see wot kinda ground fire gets thrown at it, check who it is that tries to shoot it down, and watch carefully for the likely qualfications of those calling in the heaviest artillery barrages, and extrapolate from there.

 

Not a bad way to go, actually. Beats consensus dead to rights every time, IMHO.

 

Now then. You've read the procedures -- commendable! -- so I'll gratefully spare the details. This is from memory, and it's sure to draw plenty o' that notorious Forum flak, so take it with the usual obligatory grain o' salt, and then take another. :

 

There are 2 ways to set TPS. One is no more correct than the other, IMHO. They SHOULD theoretically be interchangeable, but this ain't rocket science, and it's not possible to get it dead-nuts on the mark in any repeatable sense anyway, so take y'er pick.

 

The first is to set it to a 150 mV reference with TBs disconnected and idle screw backed fully out on the RHS TB, ensuring that the throttle plate is completely closed. I'd want to do this before synch-ing TBs if I were inclined to use this method, but that's just me.

 

The second is the way I've always done it, and IMHO it's a more practical way of doing it for those (such as myself) with PC III installed, as recommended by our semi-resident Dynotech Rep, Guzzista Extraordinaire, and all-around Commander of Power Commanders for the Guzzi, Todd Eagan, of GuzziTech. Todd recommends set the TPS to 500-525 mV, TBs connected at a throttle opening that'll give an idle of 1100 +/- 50 RPM. Now this is just me again, but I do this before and after synching the TBs.

 

Keep in mind that not only is setting the TPS a finnicky thing (a tiny movement makes a big change in reading), but a given setting might vary around 15-20 mV from read to read depending on temperature (both engine at temp sensor and ambient -- I always do mine "cold", but others may have different ideas), wind direction, phase o' the moon, and the way you hold y'er mouth. Keep in mind that loosening the adjustment screws on the TPS to get a proper read and then tightening them will alter the reading considerably in the process of tightening 'em.

 

Hope this helps.

[mznyc]

Hi RH,

Thanks for all the help.After reading the forum for the last year,I generally take advice from Gary,Greg,yerself Racer X,Carl,dlaing,and several others ,as good reliable sources.You may differ in opinions,you all speak the truth as you know it to be. Good enough for me.OK ,enough of the love fest.

Got all parts together,I'm going in tomorrow.hope to check vavles ,torq heads,check TPS.

I'm still fuzzzy bout TPS.I have not found a simple, for me,How To guide maybe with pics to help me get a better understanding,Seems like the articles Ive found are for older models or have side notes for V11 and I get all confused What connectors am I probing,how do I adjust my settings if they aren't correct?By the way I do not have a PC 3.Jeff's http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html , seems like the easiest for me to grasp but still get confused Points #9,and #10 Im lost.Why am I looking for 150mv and then 500-525mvs?Carls is good , http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/tps/TPS.html ,but seems to have a lot of things that apply to last generation models Sport,etc.Carl do you have an updated V11 procedure?

Thanks!

Michael

[Guest ratchethack]

What connectors am I probing,how do I adjust my settings if they aren't correct?

Michael, I've found that rather than tracing the TPS leads back to the ECU and probing there, it's easier and more practical from a long-term perspective to back-probe the connector at the TPS with bell wire shoved into the back of the connector leads and leave the wires in place. I poked my bell wires through the protective rubber boot (you're after the top and bottom pins) and zip-tied them back to the connector with insulated female spade connectors on the ends of each. This way I can take a TPS reading instantly any time. When you've made it this convenient, (at least in my case) there's no reason to put it off -- in fact, I tend to check it just for curiosity's sake whenever it strikes my fancy. With this mod, my fancy tends to get struck quite a bit more often than it would otherwise. . .

 

After loosening the TPS mounting screws, turn the TPS and watch the mV reading. Dial it in and futz with the securing screws until you have the desired spec when the screws are set.

 

NOTE: Not to confuse things or get off on a side-track, but this might be a good time to take a peek under the TPS. It lifts straight off with screws out. First time I did this, I found a malignant mass of corrosion in the little "cup" on the TB, where moisture (rain likely, possibly in combo with rinse water from cleaning) had obviously repeatedly collected and cooked off with engine heat. Makes quite a mess, and I wasn't too happy about having this kinda growing mass of corrosion festering in the little "open air sauna" in there , that close to the delicate contacts in the TPS and the throttle butterfly shaft. The TPS has a winding and a wiper contact that are completely OPEN to the space below it, which naturally fills up with wotever drops in there from above. I cleaned out the corrosion, put a couple drops of oil on the throttle butterfly shaft (which had also begun to corrode), let a few drops run down into the "cup" on the TB, and sealed up the open space between the TPS and throttle body with a fillet of silicone sealer. Though corrosion here to the point of freezing throttle shafts is by no means common, it has been reported several times, no doubt in cases of extended riding in inclement weather and/or washing -- any conditions where water is likely to get in there on a repeat basis. The silicone sealer keeps it all out, and flexes enough to allow any adjustment you care to make without interfering. Mine's been happily sealed up that way for at least 3 years now & works like a Champ.

Jeff's http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html , seems like the easiest for me to grasp but still get confused Points #9,and #10 Im lost.Why am I looking for 150mv and then 500-525mvs?Carls is good ,http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/tps/TPS.html ,but seems to have a lot of things that apply to last generation models Sport,etc.

Jeff loses me same place he loses you, Michael. I have to read his procedure and Carl's and a few others to get the operating principles nailed down, then reason it out logically. I reckon if I wrote my own procedure, others might have as much trouble with mine as I do with theirs. As always --

 

TJM & YMMV

 

Good luck! It ain't as hard as it might seem.

[dlaing]

The TPS wire to test are the two outer ones when looking at the TPS connector. Ignore the center one.

FWIW I followed the wires up under the seat and spliced with solder test wires on to each wire to be probed.

Well worth the effort to make it easy to test the TPS.

IMHO (as usual contrary to Ratchet's HO) it is best to set TPS to the 150mV with linkage, etc., disconnected. When doing so, note the idle TPS voltage, and do what you can to keep it within the 475-525mV range by adjusting idle and air screws.

Once done, a few subsequent TPS adjustments can be made using the 475-525mV at idle method that Ratchet endorses, as it is certainly easier, and I fear that one day, unsnapping the linkage will break it and I'll be waiting years for replacement.

[raz]

Jeff's http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html , seems like the easiest for me to grasp but still get confused Points #9,and #10 Im lost.Why am I looking for 150mv and then 500-525mvs?

The idea is to set the TPS per the WHB and then use this as a reference to get the throttle stop screws at a sane position for good idle. So in step 9 you set the TPS, in step 10 you don't alter the TPS but you use it to set the throttle stop. I guess this method is as good or bad as the other ones.

 

Just get the TPS in the ballpark, some care about a couple of mV but it will not make any difference. The spec is +/-10% so the range is 135-165 mV. The reading will vary more than that with the battery voltage (at least on the Sporti) and it will be really high if you measure with engine running. Some even say you should do just that. I say don't. You'll just end up with angry neighbours and a lean mixture.

 

The sync, on the other hand, made all difference in the world to my engine. Take your time, it's well worth it. Syncing at idle is easy, syncing at 3000 rpm is easy. Syncing both is a bit harder. I began to get a hold of it in my third try or something.

[mznyc]

Thanks guys.All helpfull advice ,I think I got it now.Thanks for your patience.

Going out right now,I'll take pics and notes and hope to write up an article on it.

Thanks,

Michael

[mznyc]

Hi RH et all,

Some torque questions,..

in Lex's article he says here "The pivot shaft bolts are tightened to 6-8 NM or roughly 53-71 in/ LB.I'm assuming 53-71LB's is way out of wack.Correct?

Also he says this "By the way, all 6mm bolts (including the six allen bolts that hold the rocker cover in place) are tightened to 8-12 NM or roughly 77-105 in/ LB. Being a middle of the road kind of guy I use 10 NM or 90 in/ LB".Isn't 10NM about 8ish LB's? Not 90 LBs?

Also my head bolts seemed to be set about 50lb's,was that too tight?Should I go with the 29.5LB range?

Thanks,

Michael

[Guest ratchethack]

Hi RH et all,

Some torque questions,..

in Lex's article he says here "The pivot shaft bolts are tightened to 6-8 NM or roughly 53-71 in/ LB.I'm assuming 53-71LB's is way out of wack.Correct?

Also he says this "By the way, all 6mm bolts (including the six allen bolts that hold the rocker cover in place) are tightened to 8-12 NM or roughly 77-105 in/ LB. Being a middle of the road kind of guy I use 10 NM or 90 in/ LB".Isn't 10NM about 8ish LB's? Not 90 LBs?

Also my head bolts seemed to be set about 50lb's,was that too tight?Should I go with the 29.5LB range?

Thanks,

Michael

Michael, we're now cross-posting from the other thread, but I think it's getting ironed out!

 

I haven't got time now to read Lex's article, but the M5 socket-head bolts on the rocker covers should be set to ~4 lbs/ft., or preferrably, without torque wrench -- "just snug" by hand! These will strip out of the aluminum heads even sooner than the rocker spindle keeper bolts did if you go much above ~4 lbs./ft!!

 

The head bolts, including the inboard-most one with the socket-head nut buried under the internal cover, get ~30 lbs./ft. These are CRITICAL to get right! When tightening them up from loose (which they certainly should NOT BE in your case!), they MUST be tightened in a cross-head pattern, or the heads wll be warped and will have to be resurfaced as a result, and you will be blowing head gaskets. It's generally NOT possible to determine the torque of a "set" bolt by reading the torque it takes to loosen the bolt or nut. You should be looking for anything that is not up to ~30 lbs./ft., and bringing any such up to torque. Wot many do when re-torquing heads, is systematically back them all off in cross-head pattern in 3 intermediate stages, then bring them up to full torque in 3 intermediate stages.

 

Hope this helps.

[mznyc]

Hi RH,

I turned the torque wrench clockwise and got a reading of about 50lbs BEFORE I loosened just to see where thet were at.I loosened and tightened in the cross patern(Whew,did sumthin right!) but since they showed 50lbs before and spec calls for about 30lbs ,I figured I should ask. Dosen't seem like a LOT of effort to get 30lbs.Should it?I know this is a personal question but any input would give me some reference.Using a bar type Craftsman TW zeroed out.

So do you concur about the discrepencies in Lex's numbers?Just want to confirm this before I move on.

[raz]

I haven't got time now to read Lex's article, but the M5 socket-head bolts on the rocker covers should be set to ~4 lbs/ft., or preferrably, without torque wrench -- "just snug" by hand! These will strip out of the aluminum heads even sooner than the rocker spindle keeper bolts did if you go much above ~4 lbs./ft!!

I guess the 5 mm socket confused your memory Ratch, the rocker cover bolts are actually M6 and should be torqued to 10 Nm or 7 lbs/ft. Anyway, as you say, by hand may be even better.

 

Hi RH,

I turned the torque wrench clockwise and got a reading of about 50lbs BEFORE I loosened just to see where thet were at.I loosened and tightened in the cross patern(Whew,did sumthin right!) but since they showed 50lbs before and spec calls for about 30lbs ,I figured I should ask. Dosen't seem like a LOT of effort to get 30lbs.

Measuring torque for loosening will always give a higher number, don't pay too much attention to it. A similar thing is if you first torque them to 29 and then try to torque them to 30, the wrench will think it's 30 already. This is also why you loosen them before retorquing them! I asked and learned about that half a year ago in this thread.

[Guest ratchethack]

Michael, see other thread. I seem to've run thru this too fast. Lex used inch-pounds, not foot-pounds, as a conversion from Nm. His numbers are correct.

 

I guess the 5 mm socket confused your memory Ratch, the rocker cover bolts are actually M6 and should be torqued to 10 Nm or 7 lbs/ft. Anyway, as you say, by hand may be even better.

My mistake. Actually, I don't think in terms of any torque difference at all between M5 and M6 anyway -- they're both "snug" by hand, as far as I'm concerned, and always err on the side of less. Using threadlocker, they don't ever back out, and using VERY LIGHT silicone gasket dressing (just enough to rub into the gasket to make it shiny), they generally don't weep or seep.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[mznyc]

Ha Ha,This is like Stonhedge incident in Spinal Tap! "It's about to be trampled by a dwarf!"

I got now,the thing I guess was confusing me was my Twrench only shows LB's and NM's.I'll just use NM's from here on out.

Other than that everything went well,upped the valve clearences to 15 in 20 out,but they were spot on for US specs.

On to TPS and TB sync,...wish me luck.