wheelsucker Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 ordered the piece from RossoPuro and was wondering before I rip the old cardan bar out if I need to lift the bike up so I'm not compressing the rear suspension? can I just pull the bolt from either side and plug the new one in? Anything else I should know from those that know or have done it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 By "cardan bar", I b'lieve you refer to the "torsion rod" or "torque bar" between the top of the bevel box and chassis. Having mine detached for service many many times and also that of a Pal's '04 LM, I can assure you that there's no tension on it wotsoever whilst the drive train is not under engine load. If all you're doing is replacing it, no need to lift the bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangeokie Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 By "cardan bar", I b'lieve you refer to the "torsion rod" or "torque bar" between the top of the bevel box and chassis.. . Cardan bar for V11 - red finish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Hmmm. Nice piece o' blingery. Spherical bushings, too. I bet I've purchased more'n a few used motos for less than this goes for. -- not that there's anything wrong with that. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Hmmm. Nice piece o' blingery. Spherical bushings, too. I bet I've purchased more'n a few used motos for less than this goes for. -- not that there's anything wrong with that. . . 'S too bad that Guzzi was working on getting around BMW's paralever patent when they came up w/ this system, because they could have gone w/ a bar above & below the swingarm if such wasn't the case [bMW's Paralever patent has one below the swingarm, iirc.] Kawi's latest system on the Connie 14 has them above & below, but on both sides, I think, which may be "more of the same," ie, just to get around the patents of others'. So why would above AND below be advantageous? 'Cause then Guzzi could have used simple cables (tension only), which would be lighter, and the most serious shortcoming Guzzis seem to possess in comparison to other marques is their relative, um, "gravitational enhancement." And every ounce saved is 28 grams earned! The spherical bearings are a nice touch, tho'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 'S too bad that Guzzi was working on getting around BMW's paralever patent when they came up w/ this system, It's the other way around. Goes like this. Horst Leitner (original ATK mortorcycles, AMP mountain bikes) holds the patent on the system introduced by Guzzi on the Daytona. Ole' Dr. John hung around Horst's Laguna Beach shop (where Horst regularly rode an XS 11 he fitted with that system - 1st I think) back in the day, and lo and behold when the Daytona went into production it had the Leitner patented system. Guzzi had no money so no point suing, but the real tragedy is that BMW was close to inking a deal with Leitner to use his system. Once Guzzi came out with it, BMW backed away to avoid "copy cat" syndrome. The paralever BMW finally introduced is a less efficient and heavier work-around of the Leitner patented system. As it is, Leitner never made a penny on that invention, though he built a motorcycle company around a similar device used to eliminate chain torque on bikes. FWIW - You want really heavy, look at the Magni parallelogram solution. And as to the weight of the Leitner system? It's the weight of the torsion bar. That's it. Period. The rest is the weight of the bevel drive which you have with or without suspension torque elimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsucker Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 Hmmm. Nice piece o' blingery. Spherical bushings, too. I bet I've purchased more'n a few used motos for less than this goes for. -- not that there's anything wrong with that. . . It actually wasn't that expensive....if your paying in Euro's!!! $115 Euro's shipped equates to about $180 US!! Damn Europeans always thinking of ways to screw us Americans over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 ... 'Cause then Guzzi could have used simple cables (tension only), which would be lighter... I like that idea! FWIW - You want really heavy, look at the Magni parallelogram solution. And as to the weight of the Leitner system? It's the weight of the torsion bar. That's it. Period. The rest is the weight of the bevel drive which you have with or without suspension torque elimination. There is also the addition of an extra U-joint. It actually wasn't that expensive....if your paying in Euro's!!! $115 Euro's shipped equates to about $180 US!! Damn Europeans always thinking of ways to screw us Americans over If you could give us a rough idea of the weight difference and any impressions of a smoother ride it would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 It's the other way around. Goes like this. Horst Leitner (original ATK mortorcycles, AMP mountain bikes) holds the patent on the system introduced by Guzzi on the Daytona. Ole' Dr. John hung around Horst's Laguna Beach shop (where Horst regularly rode an XS 11 he fitted with that system - 1st I think) back in the day, and lo and behold when the Daytona went into production it had the Leitner patented system. Guzzi had no money so no point suing, but the real tragedy is that BMW was close to inking a deal with Leitner to use his system. Once Guzzi came out with it, BMW backed away to avoid "copy cat" syndrome. The paralever BMW finally introduced is a less efficient and heavier work-around of the Leitner patented system. As it is, Leitner never made a penny on that invention, though he built a motorcycle company around a similar device used to eliminate chain torque on bikes. FWIW - You want really heavy, look at the Magni parallelogram solution. And as to the weight of the Leitner system? It's the weight of the torsion bar. That's it. Period. The rest is the weight of the bevel drive which you have with or without suspension torque elimination. Wow! Thanks for the history lesson; I really enjoy the inside story on things like this! Life's little ironies: I'm presently about 5 miles from Laguna Beach, & spent at least a couple weeks there every summer when growing up. [it was much nicer then, before Orange County's population quintupled... ] I used to ride an XS11 too: it was my first real streetbike when I got back into riding in the early 90s [having sold my Honda MT125 about 8 years previous to buy my 2nd car, a Kharmann Ghia...] Oddly enough, it had about the same performance characteristics [550lb curb wt., 80 rwhp] as a v11 out of the same displacement, but of course handles like a truck in comparison! Horst Leitner was wasting his time if he thought the XS11 would respond much to his shaft-control system: it's problems lay more in the spindly front end & incapable frame! O.K. - I know, I know: he used the XS because it was cheap, reliable & plentiful on the used market, and w/ it's poor handling, any improvements (or otherwise) would be immediately noticeable: a near ideal test-mule for his experiments! As for the weight: yes, I'm aware the torsion bar isn't particularly heavy, but a cable that has the same strength under tension as the bar does under compression will weigh much less than 1/2 the bar. That's all I'm sayin'... Bummer about him losing out on $$$ from BMW. Do you think he'll bring suit now that Piaggio's deeper pockets are now backing Guzzi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Bummer about him losing out on $$$ from BMW. Do you think he'll bring suit now that Piaggio's deeper pockets are now backing Guzzi?That was a long time ago. Patents have expired for one thing. Horst has gone on ... ATK motorcycles, then the AMP mountain bike - now AMP truck accessories (Bed X-Tender, Power Step etc.). As regards the capabilities of the XS 11, he used to show up at the rock store on that thing - would back it in on the way in, and cut donuts to keep the crowd amused. Great motor. As for the bike's capabilities, he once took his daughter on the back of that thing ... all off road .. from Laguna Beach across Saddle Back and on to Ken Maeley's ranch. He and Maeley were friends. You have to understand .. Horst was a 4 time ISDT gold medal winner, and Austrian national moto-X champion 2 years running. He could ride some ... so when his inventions got reviewed he had credibility. Joe Minton was a big supporter of the A-Trak. Some more history ... Utter Geitel (sp?), who was another friend of Horst's, was ramrodding the Honda Superbike team. He agreed to have his riders try the the A-Trak chain torque eliminator during a couple of practice sessions. They all hated it. They also all cut their best lap times using it ... but it "felt funny" to them. With Honda winning everything in sight at the time, no need to improve. But Keith Code was a believer .. and all his Kawasaki 550's had A-Traks. It's still an approved modification in the WSMC rule book. There's also an an Eastern European GP record still stands ('cause the track's long since abandoned ) where a club racer using the A-Trak whipped the best in the world. Early 80's. Horst Leitner is just one character in a pantheon of amazing individuals who made up the SoCal Motorcycle scene of the late 70's and early 80's. It's a shame that much of that history will be lost. I've tried to get my local club (San Diego Antique Motorcycle Club) to begin collecting bikes from Rob North (letter box Triumph/BSA triple), Don Vesco, Joe Leanord and some others - just from right here in San Diego. No luck so far. Another generation will rediscover these guys ... and wonder why their contemporaries didn't cherish the memories. Life's a funny journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 ...Horst Leitner is just one character in a pantheon of amazing individuals who made up the SoCal Motorcycle scene of the late 70's and early 80's. It's a shame that much of that history will be lost. ... You could write a book? Something Whitehorse Press or the Garage Company would sell in droves, I should think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsucker Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Got the cardan bar from RossoPuro. Bar is about 6oz lighter than stock, but much appealing to the eye. Gave the bike a butt dyno run and feels faster now!! J/K, the bar is purely for looks, but since its made in Italy I get an extra 15 style points, and the small RossoPuro sticker on the bar adds 5hp! Will post some pics when I'm able too, they aren't uploading at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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