Missed Shifts / False Neutrals

[Guest anawrocki]

I have a 2004 V11 Ballabio with about 3000 miles on it with about a year and a half of warranty left. I am experiencing a lot of missed shifts, particularly down shifts in the high gears although I have experienced issues up and down in almost every gear. Is this typical of the v11s and do I just need to use a bit more finese then on a ricer or do I have a potential issue? It is not cool to miss a downshift during heavy traffic situations. And then if I try to down shift again it is a very harsh engagement and I am down at least two gears instead of the one I needed.

 

I had a BMW that had very occasional issues and synthetic did seem to help. However, even with synthetic in the Ballabio it seems the same or worse.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I just do not want to get stranded, or worse yet, have the tranny seize........

[Ouiji Veck]

I wonder if this is related to the adj. screw under the mysterious acorn nut

deal on the tranny cover....After going into my tranny and tampering with that

deal-ie I had to go back and frack with it because the downshifting was a mess..

I had to sacrafice a 17mm (?) wrench (cut it short enough to get at it) but it was worth it. A couple of test drives and a few quarter turns and 3000mi later it's still 100%

 

Did I mention lately how much I love my LeMans?

The cosmic forces aligned the other night and I cranked it hard through the twisties and

straights and tacked it out for the first time. 6 or 7 miles of full out RR on a well paved un inhabited back road. EXTREAMLY stable @ top end and downshifting hard to set up

ass hanging corners with throttle to the stops exits. So stable..so contollable..

It was just plain pleasnt...just calmly scorching that road...a differnt and wonderful

sensation from anything I've ever rode in attack mode.

I never plan to ride like that again...but I never do..it just hapens on rare occasions...

the old racer blood...But I'm so pleased that this old LaMa can really carve up the pavement as well as.. and with even a better feel than my Duc or big bore Hondas.

WHO WOULDA THUNK IT! Good for Guzzi! Good for us! Good for me!

[dlaing]

Ditto on the adjuster behind the acorn.

I have mine nearly perfect, but my lever is too high, so I sometimes get lazy and accidently rest my my foot momentarily on the lever, just long enough to blow the shift.

If I skim my foot off to the side on downshifts, it is 100%.

I went with the higher adjustment because I wanted to upshift in left turns without fear of dragging my foot.

[Guest ratchethack]

Anawrocki, I suspect you might benefit from a simple adjustment, as Dave and Ouiji suggested above.

 

I was just thinking of starting a thread on this yesterday. My inspiration came from a realization that the shifting on my 2000 Sport is incredibly precise, and always has been. But several of the moto-journalists' reviews of the V11 over the last 5 years have semi-panned the V11 gearbox for "notchy" shifting and false neutrals!?!?

 

The days of multiple "extra" neutrals and "brick in a bucket" clunkiness of the Guzzi cogbox due to sloppy shimming at "the works" are long gone - aren't they, or is it just me?? Are the fuzzy-headed magazine hacks still stuck in the past, or were their test bikes just not adjusted properly?

 

AFAIK, the 6-speeder has never suffered from sloppy factory shimming. As Dave pointed out, there's a potential point of misadjustment at the eccentric limit arm under the acorn nut. Then there are more obvious points of potential slop (which I've encountered myself) at the shift linkage, where non-threadlocked bolts tend to loosen up until properly tended to.

 

But other than these relatively inconsequential and easily fixable external items, how can you otherwise fault this transmission???? Unlike many bikes (and cars) I've owned, I find the ratios to be an absolutely beautiful match to the powerband. I also find that the mechanical thrashing of the valve train masks the straight-cut gear whine. With Redline Shockproof Heavy (which I don't hesitate to recommend highly - it makes a very good thing that much better IMHO), I ask - How does it get any better than this?!?!

[BrianG]

Anawrocki, I suspect you might benefit from a simple adjustment, as Dave and Ouiji suggested above.

 

I was just thinking of starting a thread on this yesterday.  My inspiration came from a realization that the shifting on my 2000 Sport is incredibly precise, and always has been.  But several of the moto-journalists' reviews of the V11 over the last 5 years have semi-panned the V11 gearbox for "notchy" shifting and false neutrals!?!?

 

The days of multiple "extra" neutrals and "brick in a bucket" clunkiness of the Guzzi cogbox due to sloppy shimming at "the works" are long gone - aren't they, or is it just me??  Are the fuzzy-headed magazine hacks still stuck in the past, or were their test bikes just not adjusted properly?

 

AFAIK, the 6-speeder has never suffered from sloppy factory shimming.  As Dave pointed out, there's a potential point of misadjustment at the eccentric limit arm under the acorn nut.  Then there are more obvious points of potential slop (which I've encountered myself) at the shift linkage, where non-threadlocked bolts tend to loosen up until properly tended to.   

 

59337[/snapback]

 

I, for one, would appreciate a detailed description of this adjustment proceedure. Mu newly acquired 2000V-11 Sport misses up-shifts frequently in the same manner as anawrocki's..... that is it over-shifts into a neutral just above the desired gear. Finding the desired gear is then accomplished by apparent downshifting. I also find it notchy and harsh shifting compared to my Honda and even compared to my old Norton!

 

I switched to RedLine gear oil and it made no apparent difference to the shifting, but it did stop leacking all over the exhaust crossover.

[Guest ratchethack]

Brian, since I haven't gone after these symptoms (if it ain't broke... ) I'm just speculating here, but when I get stuff wrong it's been known to inspire those who know what they're talking about to chime in. My best guess is that with internal over-travel on upshifts, you'd need to loosen up the acorn nut mentioned above and rotate the eccentric shaft under it clockwise through 5 or 10 degrees and lock 'er down again. I'd do this and see if it makes an improvement.

 

How'd I do out there? Dave, I know you've been thru this...

[dlaing]

Brian, since I haven't gone after these symptoms (if it ain't broke... ) I'm just speculating here, but when I get stuff wrong it's been known to inspire those who know what they're talking about to chime in.   My best guess is that you've got an internal over-travel situation, so you'd need to loosen up the acorn nut mentioned above and rotate the eccentric shaft under it clockwise through 5 or 10 degrees and lock 'er down again.  I'd do this and see if it makes an improvement.

 

How'd I do?  Dave, I know you've been thru this...

59343[/snapback]

That could just as easily make it worse. It is a fifty/fifty chance of improvement.

five or ten degrees will probably do the trick, but it could just as easily be clockwise as counter clockwise.

The trick is to center the lobe between the definative inability to upshift or downshift.

The inability to upshift or down shift is detectable by the ratchet not re-engaging.

With the case closed this probably requires some understanding of what is going on, patience, and faith in yourself as a mechanic.

Or you could just try ten degrees one way, test it, and if it is worse, go the other direction. If you go too many degrees, the upshifting problem will become a downshifting problem.

So, I recommend trying to find the point of adjustment furthest from bad shifting.

 

I think the adjustment is key to anyone finding false neutrals that is not blowing shifts due to rider input.

Here is a digest of what I wrote previously,

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...topic=5417&st=0

with paraphrased and stolen un-quoted quotes from other posters:

 

I adjusted mine with the side cover off and discovered mine was quite a bit off.

Adjusting the screw with the cover on is flying blind, but totally doable, as evidenced by Ouiji's success.

To find out how it works, I opened up the box, undid the acorn and lock nuts, and activated the shifter with eccentric lobe maxxed out in either direction and discovered that it sets the neutral point of spring pressure on the ratchet. Meaning that if it is maxxed out in one direction, the ratchet will not re-engage on up-shifts, and if it is maxed out in the other direction, the ratchet will not re-engage on down-shifts.

Keep in mind that it does not need to be maxed out to not re-engage.

There is only a quarter turn of adjustability where it seems to be happy.

At least on my bike. Your mileage will vary...

Of course I set it in the middle of that quarter turn.

The bike was previously not set to the middle of that quarter turn.

I also marked the lobe apex or whatever it is called on the set screw so that I can adjust it from outside and know what the heck is going on inside.

In the part's manual, the eccentric pin (#9) goes through the forked end of spring #28 and positions it with respect to the case. The forked end of spring #28 also engages the pivot shaft of ratchet arm #24. Adjusting the eccentric raises or lowers the rest postion of the shift lever and the rest position of ratchet lever #24.

The orientation of the slot in the screw-face does not align with the orientation of the eccentric lobe. Or to rephrase, the slot is not in line with the direction of the offset.

To free the lock nut from the adjuster screw I had to back the nut and aduster screw out to the limit of the adjuster screw, which locked at the end of its travel so that the lock nut would unlock from the position it was stuck or glued in.

Also, going deeply in or out seems to make no difference, although it could effect your acorn nut's ability to thread if the screw goes to far in, or if the screw goes too far out, the acorn inside may contact the screw face.

Be careful. I could be overlooking something.

This adjustment will ONLY help those with either missed upshifts or missed downshifts.

If you never mis-shift don't mess with it.

If you mis-shift both up and down-shifts, it it probably a different problem.

If you shift and then it does click right and then you can't go to the next gear, then you might want to adjust it.

Do mark where you started.

It is possible to make it worse.

One half turn takes the lobe 180 degrees, so stay within a quarter turn of where the factory adjusted it. Adjust in small increments, be patient and test it every 15 degrees of the 180 degree arc, to find where it shifts well and where it shifts poorly.

After you find that, test it fewer and fewer degrees till you are sure where dead neutral is.

I may have completely over worded this whole thing, but without trying a closed cased adjustment, I want to be sure everything was covered.

 

Perhaps Ouiji could write us a simple step by step, since he did it with the case closed??????

 

FWIW I previously wrote:

I had set the adjuster screw to balance the ratchet right in between upshift failure and downshift failure. The result is flawless up-shifts, but down-shifts are a little dodgy if I don't go through the gears. The reason, I surmise, is that the weight of the shift lever is pushing the ratchet in the direction of a down-shift so that the ratchet does not always engage after a down-shift.

It looks like I will be following Ouiji's lead and adjusting blindly with a closed box. (the other solution would be to put a counter weight to neutralize the weight ot the lever.

I now have a pretty good idea how it works, so I am confident that it will shift better than ever!

But now I am sure that my missed down shifts are due to lever position and that the screw setting is fine.