Guest ratchethack Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 hi guys, just gone out to do a bit on the bike I've measured the distance from rear of front tyre to alternator cover as 90mm as near as damn it. The distance tween front and rear wheel spindles is 1500cm give or take (bit more difficult to measure this one when missus is shouting 'time for dinner')! So..do I have the short frame here or the later longer one? Suspension sag? Now there,s a thought ratchet....i've never have checked it!! Oh well that will have to wait until bike back together an off the ramp. Motorguzznix,thanks for advice on tyres. Andy, this is a bit of a puzzler, but it sure ain't the first, and it just as surely won't be the last. Your RM is the same year as mine, which may or may not be significant. Since your RM isn't a Sport, I'd expect you'd have the 26 degree rake frame of the LM variants. We're comparing spindle-center measurements and distance between tire and alternator cover, which should be indicators of which frame you've got (25 or 26 degree rake). Things seemed so simple and self-explanatory to me when comparing these measurements between my Sport and an '04 LM. However, y'er measurements square with mine in one of these dimensions, but not the other. But they don't seem to square with those of the '04 LM at all! As posted previously, my Sport has a 1471 mm dimension between spindle centers (by the Guzzi manual, confirmed by Y'ers truly as measured unladen, off side-stand, sags correctly set). My Pal's LM is 1487 mm. I've got 90 mm betwixt tire and alternator cover, same as you. My Pal's LM is 106 mm. I assume you've taken y'er measurements unladen, off side-stand, as I have, and that sags, fork height, etc. are set within reasonable enough ranges of tolerance for shirtsleeve comparison purposes. By spindle-center measurement, y'er RM is 15 mm longer than my Pal's '04 LM, and 29 mm longer than my '00 Sport. And yet, y'er tire-to-alternator cover measure (a quickie measurement simply for comparison purposes) is identical to mine, and 16 mm shorter than my Pal's LM. My best sense of this is that there may be far more than 2 different iterations of the spine frame WRT these dimensions. Without measuring each model -- nay, each bike -- who will ever know f'er certain?? One imagines a well-used, even possibly "ancient" frame fixture at the venerable old Guzzi works being subject to adjustment, possibly frequently, possibly without much regard to anything resembling consistency over the years. After all, such "features" of apparent arbitrary design -- one might venture to say whimsy, even -- are a well-known hallmark of the "village craftsmanship" of these often inexplicably, yet ever-so-wonderfully manufactured anachronisms of moto awe and wonderment! MY CONCLUSION: There's no tellin' wot rake frame you've got without a proper measurement of the angle itself. Not that it matters all that much, but this little exercise has got me in some doubt about the rake of my own Sport, despite wot the manuals and all the Guzzi published sales & marketing data say. This stuff is all good to know, if only for bar talk purposes, but in the end, the only thing that truly matters is if it works well f'er the rider. Wot d'you make of it, Chief?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossoandy Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 Andy, this is a bit of a puzzler, but it sure ain't the first, and it just as surely won't be the last. Your RM is the same year as mine, which may or may not be significant. Since your RM isn't a Sport, I'd expect you'd have the 26 degree rake frame of the LM variants. We're comparing spindle-center measurements and distance between tire and alternator cover, which should be indicators of which frame you've got (25 or 26 degree rake). Things seemed so simple and self-explanatory to me when comparing these measurements between my Sport and an '04 LM. However, y'er measurements square with mine in one of these dimensions, but not the other. But they don't seem to square with those of the '04 LM at all! As posted previously, my Sport has a 1471 mm dimension between spindle centers (by the Guzzi manual, confirmed by Y'ers truly as measured unladen, off side-stand, sags correctly set). My Pal's LM is 1487 mm. I've got 90 mm betwixt tire and alternator cover, same as you. My Pal's LM is 106 mm. I assume you've taken y'er measurements unladen, off side-stand, as I have, and that sags, fork height, etc. are set within reasonable enough ranges of tolerance for shirtsleeve comparison purposes. By spindle-center measurement, y'er RM is 15 mm longer than my Pal's '04 LM, and 29 mm longer than my '00 Sport. And yet, y'er tire-to-alternator cover measure (a quickie measurement simply for comparison purposes) is identical to mine, and 16 mm shorter than my Pal's LM. My best sense of this is that there may be more than 2 different iterations (without measuring each model -- nay, each bike -- who will ever know f'er sure?) of the spine frame WRT these dimensions. One imagines a well-used, and even possibly "ancient" frame fixture at the venerable old Guzzi works being subject to adjustment, possibly frequently, possibly without much regard to anything resembling consistency over the years. After all, such "features" of apparent arbitrary design -- one might venture to say whimsy, even -- are a well-known hallmark of the "village craftsmanship" of these often inexplicably, yet ever-so-wonderfully manufactured anachronisms of moto awe annd wonderment! MY CONCLUSION: There's no tellin' wot rake frame you've got without a proper measurement of the angle itself. Not that it matters all that much, but this little exercise has got me in some doubt about the rake of my own Sport, despite wot the manuals and all the Guzzi published sales & marketing data say. Wot d'you make of it, Chief?! lol, this thread is gettin more interstin by the day, however....I did mesure very quickly and...bike is currently on bench with paddock stand under rear swing arm,however surely wouldnt make as much difference as we are experiencing so..I'll go check it again in 30mins or so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 the rm should have the short frame . as the v11sport has. All later bikes from le mans/ scura have the long frame. If you look at the steeringhead ist clearly different. this is a long frame: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossoandy Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 lol, this thread is gettin more interstin by the day, however....I did mesure very quickly and...bike is currently on bench with paddock stand under rear swing arm,however surely wouldnt make as much difference as we are experiencing so..I'll go check it again in 30mins or so! does 1474mm sound better!! measured on the bench with paddock stand under rear arm. NOTE. bike of the month looks real good with those red wheels.....wonder where I can buy that tasty rear hugger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 does 1474mm sound better!! measured on the bench with paddock stand under rear arm. NOTE. bike of the month looks real good with those red wheels.....wonder where I can buy that tasty rear hugger? Well now that's an altogether different kettle o' fish, Andy! Somehow you came up with pretty close to one US inch difference betwixt measurements! The dinner bell would tend to hasten up the reading, wouldn't it? Since y'er amongst the Guzzi bretheren here, y'er forgiven. With this, y'er within 3 mm of the Sport manual spec., which squares exactly with my own direct measurement. Taking variances in suspension setup into consideration, I'd say that this is close enough for our purposes here to give you a very strong probability of having the same rake (and same frame) as the Sports have long been published to have, that being 25 degrees, the lot o' which, taken together with y'er tire-to-alternator cover measurement, also agrees with Paul's take. Onward Guzzi soldiers, pushing back the frontiers of ignorance! (No offense -- that includes mine as well as anyone else's! ) Armed with this, I reckon this gives you some basis of understanding on whether or not, and possibly how to go about quickening steering?? BTW - I don't know if you've considered this or not, but if you've also got the same 4.5" rear wheel that was issued with my Sport, you more'n likely were issued a 170/60 tire from Mandello. Per previous posts a-plenty on this topic, and confirmed in spades by my own experience and quite a list of others here, you can not only quicken the steering substantially by going to a 160/60, but you'll also improve that vagueness of line in the twisty stuff and replace it with far more accurate and predictable road manners overall. The improvement is quite a transformation. Its been one o' my strongest recommendations to other riders, for which I have been thanked repeatedly and profusely by those who've done it. Got those sags set properly yet? I'd be on that one like a goose on a June bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I wouldn't go so far as to pull measurements from this... FWIW, this is a 2001 frame - post accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 you see, Carls frame is quite different between the upper bearing and where the oil line is attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocker59 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 My Sport 1100 steers quite well with Bridgestone BT-014 tires. I dropped the Marzocchi 41.7 forks about 20mm years ago. Stock exhaust headers and sidestand would drag at the track. I put on a Staintune system and started removing the sidestand when at trackdays. No complaints since. I've never had any problems finding tires in the 160/60-18 size. Bridgestone, Metzeler, and Pirelli have good choices... My LeMans Nero Corsa steers great with Metzeler Z6 Roadtec tires. I've not messed with the ride height, yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 . . .Metzeler Z6 Roadtec tires. . . The choice of none other than The Oracle of Bungendore for his Griso, and Y'ers Truly, among a rapidly growing list of well-satisfied riders I know of. . . . Without any reservation, the best road tires I've ever put to pavement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossoandy Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 you see, Carls frame is quite different between the upper bearing and where the oil line is attached. ye, went looked tday,mine doesnt have that angle on top tube twds head brg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Reader Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Which frame are they selling here ? 25 or 26- its black not red. Could you just swap these frames over from a 2002 scura ? Regards Bruce http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...Flanguage_tools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 bruce I don't see frames here at the hmb site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Reader Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Sorry Paul i wasnt able to direct link to the frame within the web site. go to the Hmb website 1. choose "parts" on lhs menu 2. Then "new parts" on main page 3. Then "About offers and rare pieces" on the main page then a page should load with selection of v11 engine parts, ohlin fork, v11 cams and the frame i was talking about. Regards Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Well that is a short frame, could be from rosso mandello or centauro/daytona rs. And I think you can put all scura parts on it. Only thing I'm not shure is the front engine mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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