Relay Failures

[V11UK]

I've covered well over 28,000 miles on Bosch relays without a failure. Unlike American models, pre-2003 UK spec V11's don't have their headlights hard-wired. I only use my headlight in daylight hours during bad weather, normally it's switched off.

[al_roethlisberger]

I was curious as to what is the most miles someone has on their relays without a failure.

I can't remember when exactly I replaced my mine.

I guess it took 15,000 miles for it to fail.

Has anyone gone further?

If so, do you use your horn or flasher?

 

 

...hrmm, perhaps this should be a poll, but I always honk my horn when my relays fail. You?

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist

 

 

I have no idea about the longevity of the standard newish(taller Seimens) relays. I replaced mine the day after I bought the bike with Dan's Bosch units, and no problems yet(knock on wood). But as mentioned above, if there is a heavier duty version that Dan has discovered, I'll replace them all again as a good safeguard. So I'm just waiting to hear if indeed these new heavier duty relays will work

 

al

[dlaing]

OK, so I have another wrench to throw into the equation...

I had been looking at the 2000 wiring diagram.

I just took a look at the 2001 and 2002 wiring diagrams and they are very different from 2000.

Fortunately, the lighting is now fine on later models, but the current to the starter's solenoid is another problem. They appear to have routed the current so that there still be some excessive loads passing through various switches, or atleast the key switch.

(the 2000s have a better routing to the starter solenoid, but the demands of the solenoid can exceed the 15amp fuse rating for all year bikes)

John Sullivan's mechanic was going to run a bypass relay to the solenoid so that the high current goes directly from battery to solenoid. A perfect and easy solution.

 

But for the 2000 models, there is still a load problem on the starter relay as it powers the lighting, that could be fixed with a heavier duty relay....if we can find one the right size...

 

The question now is, when did the wiring changes take place?

It was probably not right at the 2000/2001 year change...

[al_roethlisberger]

Dan is supposed to be testing a heavier duty relay for us ASAP. I am supposedly on his test-mule list, but I haven't heard from him in a couple weeks.

 

al

[dlaing]

Dan got one batch of relays from one company that had higher apparent ratings, but from what he can tell, they are no better than the Bosch.

I think he did not send them for that reason.

He has another batch on order from another company that appears to have truly better ratings....we shall see.

 

Al, FWIW your 2002 only has the potential starter problem, which is better alleviated by an additonal relay like John O'Sullivan has planned.

In John's case the relay is not the problem as it is rated for 20A.

The wiring and fusing is the problem.

 

Of course, better relays are better relays!

The Bosch are still excellent quality, and there is more to it than just amperage capacity.

 

I imagine the changes in the wiring diagrams changed when they modified the relay block.

[dlaing]

I just got a test relay from Dan.

The relay has almost identical dimensions to the Bosch relay.

It is only available in black but it would look great powder coated red!

Here is some some data on it:

GEI AR4-012-C11

Pick-up Voltage

Drop-out Voltage >10% nominal

Max. Coil Voltage

Coil Consumption SPDT: Approx. 1.5W

Contact

Configuration A: 1 form A (SPST-NO), C: 1 form C (SPDT)

Material Silver (Ag) alloy

Rated Load NO: 25A@14VDC, NC: 20A@14VDC

Initial Voltage Drop SPST:

Max. Carry Current NO: 30A

Max. Switching Voltage 75VDC

Max. Switching Current NO: 25A

Max. Switching Power 350W

CHARACTERISTICS

Contact Resistance Max. 50m? (0.1A/6V)

Operate Time

Release Time

Insulation Resistance Min. 100M? (@500VDC)

 

Dan needs some feedback on it before he orders more.

Good excuse for Al and I to go riding come rain or come sun shine.

I suspect the price should be about $5-10 each, and at this point only recommend it for the starter relay.

If the relay passes the short term tests, I suspect Dan will be ready to sell by February.

FWIW The Bosch is made in Germany and the GEI is made in China.

To get the full PDF data sheet on the relay,

Click Here!

[al_roethlisberger]

Yep, I got mine in the mail yesterday

 

I'll shove it in there today. But Monday's "SF Bay Area Dinner" will be my last ride for about a week, as the construction guys will be pouring my new driveway today or tomorrow. And what with the cold wet weather, I won't be riding/driving across it for a few days.

 

al

[docc]

I've spent the afternoon eye-balling the wiring diagram of the 2000 V11 Sport. I have a couple observations and questions:

 

First, the power the the headlamp, brake lamp and horns travels through both the starter relay and the light relay as well as the headlamp current also passing through the headlamp switch. With the standard bulbs the high beam and brake lamp will draw 6.75 amps.( The fuel warning lamp is also on this circuit but only draws 0.1 amp).

 

Given that the Bosch relays are rated for 10 amps this current should pass through them for a good long time. ( The 6 amps going through the switch is another story).

 

 

Wiring your horns to a separate relay is a darn good idea as they add 6 amps. And it's not unlikely to be using your horns, brakes and high beam all at once!

 

Second, there is a wire from this circuit to the voltage regulator. The only thing I can figure is that it's a 'back door' to the ignition switch in the event of battery failure.

 

*Question 1 * : Will the bike run without a battery?

 

Adding up running current requirements , guessing wildly at their values, it looks like the bike could draw as much as 13 or 14 amps with the high beam and brake light on. If that's the case it needs to be turning 1300 - 1500 rpm to meet these requirement at normal generator output.

 

* Question 2 * : Does anyone know what the bike normally draws to run, with the high beam and brake light on, as if stopped in traffic?

 

( Elec-trickery for the mind numb - )

[callison]

*Question 1 * : Will the bike run without a battery?

 

No. At least it won't start without one. You need the fuel pump to pressurize the injectors. And of course, the ECU needs the battery to get everything initiated. I would be extremely reluctant to remove the battery from a running bike too. It is a possibility that the ECU will get fried, a very expensive experiment.

[Guest J.R.]

On that same note.Will the PC3 lose it's memory if the battery is taken out of the system?

Or does it retain the memory once it's programed.

I do recall a trick on some cars to reprogram the throttle setting from previous owners.(supposedly the computer LEARNS who is driving by throttle response inputs) scary huh?

I'm wondering over the winter when I do some mods requiring disconnection of the battery,will I need to re-download the program?

 

J.R.

[dlaing]

JR the PCIII and the ECU both maintain there memory, so no worries.

 

Docc, did you measure the amps with an amp meter or calculate from the rated Wattage values?

Good catch on the amps for the headlight going through the headlight switch. Although the tail light current does not pass through that switch. So, it should be less than or about 5 Amps. In any case, I would expect the headlight's current to eventually degrade that switch such that seperate high and low beam relays might not be a bad idea for those looking for greater longevity and reliability.

FWIW when you hit the high beam flasher the current through the starter relay should also rise above 10 Amps.

Also in addition to the headlights, horn, and brake lights, the tachometer, fuel light, oil pressure light, generator light, are all on the same relays, but probably do not draw much current.

I recommend not using the horn or Hi beam flasher until your relay is upgraded, except in emergencies.

One can of course keep replacing the relays as they do seem to last, despite being under rated.

From what I understand the red/black wire going to the voltage regulator is there to tell the regulator how much to regulate, and not to power anything.

 

An additional consideration is that the amp rating on the relays may experience a real world drop due to road and engine vibration.

[docc]

David, I calculated the amperage by dividing the wattage by 12. now, theoretically a fully charged 12 volt lead-acid battery throws 12.7 volts. If the wiring harness is carrying 12.7v , amperage will be lower. I'll have to check my running voltage on the business side of the regulator.

 

You're right of course about the three indicator lights on this circuit ( 0.1 amp each and rarely on) and the power to the tach. The light for the tach and speedo is on the 'dipped light' or 'parking light' circuit with the tail light, tag light and 4 watt 'city light' in the headlamp shell. This power comes through the ignition switch and creates a good auxiliary light system in event of relay failure.

 

Also, quite true that when you activate that 'passing' feature it lights both the high and low beams routing 9.6 amps through the relays and switch, but probably only for an instant. I ride with the high beam on continually so I agree that there is a 5 amp current on the circuit continually. Add 2 amps with the brake light on. Seems like the relays should be OK with that, don't you think?

 

Three of the five relays in the harness stay activated all the while the bike is running ( Light relay, ECU relay, FI/coil/pump relay). Does the constant activation degrade the relay ?

[dlaing]

possibly.

I took apart one of my failed relays and the coil looked like it may have been showing signs of burning.

It was difficult to see if there was pitting on the contacts.

The resistance across the contacts was greater than a brand new relay, current flowed, but not enough to power the lights, etc.

 

One of these days I'll put an ammeter on the lighting and starter relays to measure the current.

Unless someone beats me to it, hint, hint.

Perhaps the horn being on while braking is the only real bad scenario.

FWIW the relays rate the amperage at 14V, so 10Amps at 12V should be easier to handle than at 14V.

 

I suspect that when John blew his fuses, the solenoid was not activating the starter, so the voltage stayed high (12+ Volts) when he held in the button. Under normal conditions, when the solenoid activates the starter, the voltage should drop, Although the amperage remains potentially higher than the fuse rating, the reduced voltage reduces the wattage, and thus the fuse does not blow.

Of course there is a moment of time when the solenoid is engaging that the voltage remains high until the starter is activated, but that moment is too brief to blow the fuse.

[docc]

I know several of us have added horn relays. But has anyone added lamp relays ( I'll bet they'll burn the headlamp brighter with a good guage of wire to them)?

 

And which relay is which? I couldn't find a diagram or chart showing them.

[dlaing]

On my Y2K the front most relay is the starter relay.