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V11 Sport 2001 intermittent stalling


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In agreement with your thoughts that timing chain unlikely to be the culprit as you would likely have problems when "cold / warm" also. Something is getting out of whack as things get hot and my hunch is an electrical component / sensor as the cut-out is so immediate based on your video.

 

Always a good idea to listen to Kiwi-Roy btw ... he has helped countless members over the years, myself included.

 

As Docc said ... this is indeed an elusive problem and we are looking forward to a resolution ... almost as much as you are!

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Received my 10-pack of new Omron relays from Online Components (thanks Docc), and installed the 5, all good. That leaves 5 for anyone who needs them. $20 shipped within the continental US. 

A few suggestions: The backfiring then dying might be related to 1/ Valve clearances, 2/ Induction Rubber Sleeves, 3/ Ignition coil or ignition lead faults.   1/ a sputter, cough problem when ve

Not sure what the added "1" designation is.  I do not see it in the product description sheet from OMRON ("R" is surge suppression /built in resistor): https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/product

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If you think the ECU might be switching off then look for that.

A small lamp e.g. 12 Volt LED connected to the wire that feeds Pump, Coils and Injectors would turn Off.

The easiest place to access that wire is pin 87 of relay 5.

Tape the lamp to the bars where you can see it safely, next time it plays up you have the answer plain and simple.

 

I'm sure I suggested before monitoring the ECU input (petcock fuse or relay 4 coil).

 

You could also monitor the TPS Voltage with a very simple circuit and an LED

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If you think the ECU might be switching off then look for that.

A small lamp e.g. 12 Volt LED connected to the wire that feeds Pump, Coils and Injectors would turn Off.

The easiest place to access that wire is pin 87 of relay 5.

Tape the lamp to the bars where you can see it safely, next time it plays up you have the answer plain and simple.

 

I'm sure I suggested before monitoring the ECU input (petcock fuse or relay 4 coil).

 

You could also monitor the TPS Voltage with a very simple circuit and an LED

 

I have a Go Winky light (on the petcock connector) which stays lit solidly. Also, if the ECU would be switching off, would I not also loose the connection/readout with GuzziDiag? 

That did not happen when I made the video (I had the laptop connected).

 

I will check the cam sensor visually and measure the distance to the phonic wheel, anything else I can do before the next "try"?

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Tinus,

do you have access to a strobe lamp? It would let you check the ignition (the spark triggers the strobe).

2. You should also carefully listen to the fuelpump. Does it run longer then the engine? It means, after the engine stops, can you hear the pump running for another second or so?

3. Does the bike start with the throttle wide open (TPS related question)? It should start at least.

 

When the ecu looses the phase signal it usually stops firing coils and injectors. I saw this starting with backfiring and all that.

 

The battery voltage does not shut down the ecu. I had mine running fine at 17 or 18 V, only the newly bought Hawker got a bit hot and sweating :( 

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Tinus,

do you have access to a strobe lamp? It would let you check the ignition (the spark triggers the strobe).

2. You should also carefully listen to the fuelpump. Does it run longer then the engine? It means, after the engine stops, can you hear the pump running for another second or so?

3. Does the bike start with the throttle wide open (TPS related question)? It should start at least.

 

When the ecu looses the phase signal it usually stops firing coils and injectors. I saw this starting with backfiring and all that.

 

The battery voltage does not shut down the ecu. I had mine running fine at 17 or 18 V, only the newly bought Hawker got a bit hot and sweating :(

 

Excellent questions. I may be able to acquire a strobe lamp. But I'm not experienced with computer-managed engines. The ECU changes pre-ignition with throttle opening and rpm, so how reliable is that check? How do I make it reliable?

Also, if the ignition would be off at temperature, but not cold, would that not confirm the phase sensor to be faulty?

 

I had not paid attention to the pump, but I just re-listened the video on my phone with headphones on: you can clearly hear the pump run and stop after the engine died.

I have not tried starting it with WO throttle, cold nor hot. I will try that.

 

Yes, she does backfire and pop into the exhaust, but I can also imagine if the phase pickup is not 100%, ignition will be off, leaving unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber, which burns on the next (wrong) ignition.

The backfire is also NOT a full one, but more of a rough smokey cough backwards. It does not hurt my ears, to say.

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Seems to me that (after reminding us) that you have both go-winky and guzzi-diag that the ecu is not dropping out (and tps likely ok?) and so if there was a sweep-stake (there's an idea!) I would place my bet on the sensor going out of whack with temperature ... this does seem to fit the symptoms  ?

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I might replace the sensor indeed... But before I do so, how do I reliably measure the air gap?

I don't have anything like Engineers blue or wax, but am very willing to be creative.

 

The owners' manual describes using a caliper, but my sensor's base plate is bent (due to the o-ring underneath) and therefore does not touch the engine block mount completely, making it impossible to measure accurately.

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Sensors are 'spensive. :o 169€ @Stein-Dinse, so just on a hunch... I don't know.... :huh2:

 

But if you say that there is an O-ring below the sensor and that its base plate is bent, then chances are good that the distance is not OK. An O-ring is not foreseen there.

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I used a spot of JBQuick to check mine I made sure there was a tooth lined up and bolted the sensor in place. The epoxy won't stick to the gear because it's oily. Left it to harden for a few minutes.

I found it next to impossible to measure with calipers subtracting probe length from hole depth.

Of course you can use feelers but you have to remove the timing cover for that.

 

I may be wrong but I think the ECU looks for the gap in the phonic wheel (tooth missing) then counts teeth from there to know when to spark etc. so it would seem to follow if it misses another pulse through wrong gap or bad sensor it must really throw it out.

My bike has always had the tendency to cough and stall at idle if I have it set too low.

 

We need to do some research on the Fiat part Number, I'm sure the same sensor is used in others as well, it's likely a Marrelli part. I have been lurking on an English site lately, they seem to have had a number of them go bad

 
 

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Sensors are 'spensive. :o 169€ @Stein-Dinse, so just on a hunch... I don't know.... :huh2:

 

But if you say that there is an O-ring below the sensor and that its base plate is bent, then chances are good that the distance is not OK. An O-ring is not foreseen there.

 

Indeed, but I found a used one for 50eur... Also, TLM sells them for 45eur new: http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/sensor-tacho-and-fase-v11-017216000000-moto-guzzi?___SID=U

That's a gamble I'm willing to take.

The o-ring is supposed to be there according to the parts drawings (#16):

 

Sensor.png

 

 

I used a spot of JBQuick to check mine I made sure there was a tooth lined up and bolted the sensor in place. The epoxy won't stick to the gear because it's oily.

I found it next to impossible to measure with calipers

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

 

Stuff like JBQuick or Engineers' Blue are impossible to get here in the Netherlands:(

I'll see if I can find anything that makes sense to use...

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Plain old cellophane (Scotch) tape will work.  Google your tape to find the thickness.  Lay on enough layers to match the spec.  Install the sensor, remove and look.  Tape crushed, too close. Tape not touched, too far. Light impression in tape, just right.

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So, I have received the new camshaft position sensor. Would you:

 

- Replace (and properly gap) the sensor with a cold engine, and then warm her up and see if the issue returns.

- Warm her up, get the issues again, then with the hot engine replace the sensor (gapping might be tricky).

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I think the clearance spec should be on a "cold" motor (not sure how much "hot" would affect the clearance?) ... so I would replace it first and see what happens.

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- Replace (and properly gap) the sensor with a cold engine, and then warm her up and see if the issue returns.

 

- Replace (and properly gap) the sensor with a cold engine, and then warm her up and see if the issue returns.

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