dlaing Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Here's an interesting incident regarding an oil filter coming loose. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bullet..._2___g_cckf.cfm Seems that 20mmx1.5 and 3/4inch 16tpi are very similar. This article tells of a filter of the wrong type being fitted that was difficult to get on and stripped its threads under pressure. If the thread types were reversed, the filter would go on easily but would possibly loosen itself under thermal and shock loading. Feasible? Definitely could loosen itself. But according to the story they struggled to get the filter on. The difference in diameter would allow it to go on easily, but the difference in pitch would require the force of stripping threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Hey, horsies; there's the water . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Hey, horsies; there's the water . . . Hey Greg, I think your original post is of great value. Especially the title "tightenup those filters" We've just been discussing possible cause. That's what this forum is for, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Hey Greg, I think your original post is of great value. Especially the title "tightenup those filters" We've just been discussing possible cause. That's what this forum is for, right? I didn't realize that you were discussing a possible cause. My take was that you were doubting that there could be any other cause excepting operator error. My error. As others have already pointed out, other objects that rely on threads to keep them in place (bolts, nuts, etc.) loosen all the time under vibration. Why is it so inconcievable that something mounted with low torque values for the size of fastener involved, that's hanging down from a boss mount that's not well-supported for all the vibrations going on and the weight of boss and full filter, that hangs down in a hot, greasy, vibratory environment, can in rare instances spontaneously loosen under all these forces? I'm not surprised that they could, although I do not know this to be the cause. If you want to believe incompetence is the sole cause of loosening filters, be my guest. If you want to drastically reduce the liklelihood of a filter backing off, no matter if the real cause is incompetence or something else, see the photo below: Note that the screw housing on the clamp butts against the boss on the filter mount assembly. Tighten the clamp, and the filter's not coming off without your blessing. Just as it may be possible that the filter spontaneously loosens, it may be possible that the clamp could spontaneously loosen. I've never heard of that happening, however, whereas I have heard of four filters loosening in the last month. Good luck, whichever approach you decide to take . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamedog Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Why - That's exactly what my installation looks like! Thanks for the filter and clamp Greg. Cheap insurance and doesn't weigh anything. I suppose theres a chance I missed the correct worm gear torque, but far less likely than having an issue with a cell-phone using SUV driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Note that the screw housing on the clamp butts against the boss on the filter mount assembly. Tighten the clamp, and the filter's not coming off without your blessing. Just as it may be possible that the filter spontaneously loosens, it may be possible that the clamp could spontaneously loosen. I've never heard of that happening, however, whereas I have heard of four filters loosening in the last month. Perhaps we need to lockwire the clamp ....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Drill a hole through the clamp and use a sheetmetal screw? sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Perhaps we need to lockwire the clamp ....? The lockwire could make a bit a mess when it comes off and wraps round the internals. Spose if the wire was set in glue it would keep it in place. Fibreglass resin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Maybe we should just JB Weld the filter in place. The sumbitch is big enough that it doesn't really need changing that often, unless you're running shitty air filters or the engine suddenly starts shedding particles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 .... As others have already pointed out, other objects that rely on threads to keep them in place (bolts, nuts, etc.) loosen all the time under vibration. Why is it so inconcievable that something mounted with low torque values for the size of fastener involved, that's hanging down from a boss mount that's not well-supported for all the vibrations going on and the weight of boss and full filter, that hangs down in a hot, greasy, vibratory environment, can in rare instances spontaneously loosen under all these forces? I'm not surprised that they could, although I do not know this to be the cause. ...... They loosen only if the connection was poorly designed. A correct nut and bolt connection won't come loose, that's fact. Just a few examples: connecting rod bolts. They don't come loose. Cylinder head screws. They don't come loose etc. etc. If someone looses his oil filter then something went wrong before, was done wrong before, or something was poorly designed. And there is one other thing I'm absolutely sure of: should there be some forces aplied to the filter, be they dynamical or what ever, that are strong or just persistent enough to loosen and to screw off a correctly mounted filter then they before will get rid of this hose clamp as well. As I still don't buy it, as you say, I just sit back and wait how long it will take until you find a lost filter with a lost clamp somewhere else. I think there is a good chance for that to happen as it seems that so or so the filters all fall off only in very selected regions of the USA. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex-Corsa Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Perhaps we need to lockwire the clamp ....? Put the corect loctite antivibration-temporary fasten the filter well (but not overtighten) and it aint going to go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Cheek Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Perhaps we need to lockwire the clamp ....? We are fer sure on the same page! A few of the reasons I choose not to use the band aid hose clamp. #1 Countless miles of trouble free service from properly installed , quality filters #2 A properly tightened filter of good quality will not loosen itself. #3 Any one who could fail to tighten a filter could also fail to tighten or OVERTIGHTEN a hose clamp. Either way the clamp could fall off and create mayhem that otherwise could not occur. #4 A subsequent mechanic, not realizing someone had placed the un-needed clamp my cause damage in his attempt to remove the filter in the normal mannner #5 Since Guzzi has been nice enough to provide the manhole cover I do not always remove the sump bottom to do a filter change. Yes, scrubbing out the sump is nice but not really a must do, we ain't eating in there. #6 I do not use the unreliable "torque" method, to achieve proper seal compression I turn the filter a set distance beyond the initial seal contact point. #7 This is a street bike, not a race bike so along with all the other parts of the machine that have never required safety wire the filter does not get a hose clamp. The sanctioning bodies at race tracks know race mechanics are under pressure and safety fixes are required as a back up . Doing the work at my own pace here at home with no pressure allows for a more thorough approach for the filter as well as other work on the bike. #8 I do not use UFI filters and so far most of the problems for whatever reason seem to be with UFI filters. Not to say it is UFI but... #9 If it is caused by filter design or construction, it would need to be the seal losing resiliency or the actual filter threaded core springing and relaxing the seal. Any over pressure from a releif valve problem or oil viscosity problem would usually leave telltale evidence. I have seen ballooned filter housings and seals extruding from under the filter lip as typical telltales of overpressure in cars as well as industrial equipment. The "hot, greasy, vibratory environment" is no worse than a filter hanging out in the open. #10 I replace filters at intervals not exceeding 6 months so I have no reason to believe the seal would age and lose it's resiliency. The only properly tightend filters I ever saw leaking had been on the car for many years and had actually dried out. #11 With very few exceptions a properly tightened ,properly applied fastener does not and will not come undone by itself.While there are fasteners on many machines that require periodic checking and retightening the filter is not one of them. #12 A horse knows when to drink and when not to far better than the condescending man who leads the horse to water that the horse already knew to be there. Horse sense also keeps horses from betting on man. #13 "Luck" is not a factor . Properly tightening a quality filter takes "luck" right out of the equation. "Luck" is far more desireable for the folks who have to rely on someone else to do the work for them. #14 I have seen far more busted worm drive hose clamps than loose filters. If I ever take up the practice it is a good bet I would safety wire the clamp.. #15 Anyone is free to do whatever they want. I don't really wish to derrogate those who choose for what ever reason to use the hose clamp as a filter clamp. I think it is sad certain proponents of the practice feel the need to diss those who with good reason and experience choose not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Maybe we should just JB Weld the filter in place. The sumbitch is big enough that it doesn't really need changing that often, unless you're running shitty air filters or the engine suddenly starts shedding particles. Nah, just make a cap up to cover the filter seat and weld it in place, you'll never need worry about it again. Actually, even better you could buy a screen filter and oil delivery pipe from an old Eldo or 850T and fit them to the engine, (It would require drilling a couple of small holes but so what?) Then you could dump that excessively weighty oil cooler and thermostat, fit an early sump, (Real cheap on e-bay!) save weight so the bike would go faster, never have to worry about the filter falling off or being gouged by unscrupulous parts vendors, sell your stock in hose clamp futures and retire to the sunny Carribean to sit on your verandah and flick nuts at the poor people. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 #15 Anyone is free to do whatever they want. Good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I'm with ya on all counts Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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