Tinus89
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Posts posted by Tinus89
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Just to ask, is that with the old RPM sensor, did you just shim it properly, or did you also replace the sensor?
I also replaced it, because:
- I wasn't sure it was OK
- The base plate of the sensor was bent (due to the too large o-ring)
- The cord had already been damaged.
But to be honest: I think the distance was the issue (due to the too large o-ring)
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If it's not, you have nothing to seal the gasket..
I'm not sure I understand where these parts actually go? My exhaust has a flat face, which I think should seal against the gasket.
The RM is 2°Series, they came without these parts. I don't know the early 'crown' versions of '99/2000, maybe they needed them. Don't bother, you would have noticed that something's missing.
The manifold's also different to that pictured here.
I have the second series (not the crown, but the oval flange), but I think the drawing intends the use of those flanges for both...
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In thinking about replacing the gasket anyway, which parts should I actually order? The gasket of course, but if you look at the below picture, I don't think in the current setup, the spacer - circled in red - is installed at all?
What's it's function?
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Check the exhaust manifold gasket.
Ed.: ...although the VIMEO video from last year sounds different. Anyway, mine sounds best when I have my ears plugged, means I could hear all I want in such videos. It's a rattly lump this engine
The RM Candy Red is quite nice by the way
How do I check it? Just feel for leaks? Re-tighten it after it has been hot once? Change the gaskets preventively? The exhausts have been off about 6 or 7 times...
Thanks! The Candy Red is why I fell in love with this bike:)
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So, after discussing a different (electrical) issue on this great forum! here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19943&page=9&do=findComment&comment=222199, I would like to re-start this discussion again.
I've noticed the metallic sound is still increasing. Here is a video where you can hear it, but I will try to make a better one soon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnTi_vtetIM
The sound changes/goes up with rpm.
Also, it sounds like it is originating more from the right cylinder, so I want to focus on that. I have checked (and let a specialist visually inspect) every moving part in that cylinder, which are all OK.
Now my focus is on the head, which is the only thing I have not disassembled. Some points for discussion:
- Can a loose valve seat be observed from the bottom with the valve closed?
- Could a loose valve guide (or anything else there) create a sound like this?
- Could something cause the valve to close "late", which then causes the cam follower to loose contact from the cam momentarily, be pushed back with speed, causing the sound to be coming from right centre of the engine (cam follower hitting camshaft hard), contrary to the head?
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Yes indeed! Thanks for all contributing!
Now back to the existing issue, the sound, in the other topic! -
Yes! Excellent progress. Methodology applied:
- Put 0.78mm of tape on sensor, place one 0.4mm metal gasket (or shim) and installed. Severe denting of tape, this method does not work at all (requires a lot of tape replacements). I removed the tape.
- I then placed another 0.2mm gasket on, placed the sensor in the hole and felt for radial play: gone, but just gone. Placed one layer of tape on and pushed it in, contact was shown. So: I was at zero gap. I then added a 0.7mm gasket ánd 0.7mm of tape and installed. Only a slight blob of oil visible on the tape. I added another 0.12mm piece of tape and installed it again, which indicated contact, so I had gapped it to 0.7mm! Whole process took about an hour or so.
I then fired her up and did (in about 5deg C higher outside temperature compared to last time) the exact same route and then stopping and starting routine. Nothing happened!
I then "confirmed" by doing a brief city tour, and again all fine. I would say: issue resolved!
Some (other) findings:
- The o-ring underneath the sensor was significantly too large and had compressed/extruded out underneath the gasket/shim. Also, the metal base of the sensor was bent.
- The rattle seems to be coming from the inside of the right cylinder, not the left. Also, it varies with rpm and sometimes is also heard at high load/high rpm, but I am not 100% sure that is not pinging. I will continue to discuss the possible causes in my initial topic here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19627&page=8
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So, I have received the new camshaft position sensor. Would you:
- Replace (and properly gap) the sensor with a cold engine, and then warm her up and see if the issue returns.
- Warm her up, get the issues again, then with the hot engine replace the sensor (gapping might be tricky).
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Sensors are 'spensive.
169€ @Stein-Dinse, so just on a hunch... I don't know.... 
But if you say that there is an O-ring below the sensor and that its base plate is bent, then chances are good that the distance is not OK. An O-ring is not foreseen there.
Indeed, but I found a used one for 50eur... Also, TLM sells them for 45eur new: http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/sensor-tacho-and-fase-v11-017216000000-moto-guzzi?___SID=U
That's a gamble I'm willing to take.
The o-ring is supposed to be there according to the parts drawings (#16):
I used a spot of JBQuick to check mine I made sure there was a tooth lined up and bolted the sensor in place. The epoxy won't stick to the gear because it's oily.
I found it next to impossible to measure with calipers
Sent from my shoe phone!
Stuff like JBQuick or Engineers' Blue are impossible to get here in the Netherlands:(
I'll see if I can find anything that makes sense to use...
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I might replace the sensor indeed... But before I do so, how do I reliably measure the air gap?
I don't have anything like Engineers blue or wax, but am very willing to be creative.
The owners' manual describes using a caliper, but my sensor's base plate is bent (due to the o-ring underneath) and therefore does not touch the engine block mount completely, making it impossible to measure accurately.
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Tinus,
do you have access to a strobe lamp? It would let you check the ignition (the spark triggers the strobe).
2. You should also carefully listen to the fuelpump. Does it run longer then the engine? It means, after the engine stops, can you hear the pump running for another second or so?
3. Does the bike start with the throttle wide open (TPS related question)? It should start at least.
When the ecu looses the phase signal it usually stops firing coils and injectors. I saw this starting with backfiring and all that.
The battery voltage does not shut down the ecu. I had mine running fine at 17 or 18 V, only the newly bought Hawker got a bit hot and sweating
Excellent questions. I may be able to acquire a strobe lamp. But I'm not experienced with computer-managed engines. The ECU changes pre-ignition with throttle opening and rpm, so how reliable is that check? How do I make it reliable?
Also, if the ignition would be off at temperature, but not cold, would that not confirm the phase sensor to be faulty?
I had not paid attention to the pump, but I just re-listened the video on my phone with headphones on: you can clearly hear the pump run and stop after the engine died.
I have not tried starting it with WO throttle, cold nor hot. I will try that.
Yes, she does backfire and pop into the exhaust, but I can also imagine if the phase pickup is not 100%, ignition will be off, leaving unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber, which burns on the next (wrong) ignition.
The backfire is also NOT a full one, but more of a rough smokey cough backwards. It does not hurt my ears, to say.
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If you think the ECU might be switching off then look for that.
A small lamp e.g. 12 Volt LED connected to the wire that feeds Pump, Coils and Injectors would turn Off.
The easiest place to access that wire is pin 87 of relay 5.
Tape the lamp to the bars where you can see it safely, next time it plays up you have the answer plain and simple.
I'm sure I suggested before monitoring the ECU input (petcock fuse or relay 4 coil).
You could also monitor the TPS Voltage with a very simple circuit and an LED
I have a Go Winky light (on the petcock connector) which stays lit solidly. Also, if the ECU would be switching off, would I not also loose the connection/readout with GuzziDiag?
That did not happen when I made the video (I had the laptop connected).
I will check the cam sensor visually and measure the distance to the phonic wheel, anything else I can do before the next "try"?
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I can't imagine it being the timing chain, as the bike runs perfectly fine when cold or warm (anything aside from "hot" really.
The spark plugs look perfect and equal. It does not seem to be running rich or lean, until she stumbles. Then (of course) she smells of petrol.
I will retry with the oil temp sensor and fuse #3 unplugged, and I will inspect the cam position sensor.
Questions:
- is fuse #3 the 30A fuse?
- is there any way (except for distance) to check the cam position sensor?
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What do you mean with "regulator be the source" and what do you want to measure with an ordinary multimeter?
If you want to measure what regulator gives you, you can pull fuse #3 (30A), start the engine and measure between each fuse socket contact and battery negative. One one side you will have battery's on another regulator's voltage.
However, I don't think you can have any spikes coming from the regulator At least not with the battery connected (fuse #3 in place!). The battery would iron out any spikes produced by the regulator.
Anyway, the regulator with no (or moderate, there will always be some) load should give you nice 14-14.6V
You may want to check your ignition coils, if you have not done that already: https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/how-to-test-a-spark-plug-ignition-coil-by-eduardo-ruelas
There are no reference values for coils in the workshop manual, so I suggest you measure both and compare.
The regulator gives me about 14.35v with no load. When the issue occurs, my thought would be that an overvoltage would occur, causing the ecu to switch off.
I checked the coils, they measured out fine, plus I cannot imagine them both failing together, as both cylinders have the misfires.
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There is the wonderful Caspers TPS Breakout Harness that Danl had produced for us.
I could not find my TPS fault using (milli)voltage readings on my Triplett meter, but when I read the resistance through the potentiometer while slowly opening and closing the throttle, the *jump* in resistance showed the fault clearly.
If you are using guzzidiag, you can monitor a selection of sensors and watch at the failure point for any that demonstrate a sudden and unexpected reading.
So when she started stalling again, I had the same thought. Hooked up Guzzidiag and while very slowly increasing throttle until the moment she fails again, looking at TPS voltage and degrees translation as well. I even looked at the pre-ignition value while doing this, but none of them showed any jumps or numbers out of the ordinary.
Questions:
- if the regulator would be the source, can I measure that with an ordinary multimeter, or would that not pick up any spikes? Do I require to use a scope?
- aside from regulator/TPS/timing sensor, are there any other possible culprits? Could it be mechanical? Related to the rattle?
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Back on topic.
Did you check air supply? The rubber connecting throttle bodies with cylinders may be cracked and you may be drawing more air then needed.
Yes, I both visually checked and using some brake cleaner while running (no rise in rpm). They are quite soft and in rather good condition.
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I did a "stress-test". Here is what I did:
- 23deg C outside.
- Went for a 20min drive to get her hot and returned home. Let her idle about 4 min, drive around the block (2min). Nothing. Let her idle another 2-3min and go again, immediate failure (coughing, popping in exhaust). Closing the throttle immediately kept her running idle.
- Put her inside and hooked up multimeter. Rev until she died (~2500rpm), voltage does not go above 13.3v with headlight on. Felt ECU, battery and relays: all not hot.
- Hooked up Guzzidiag and started her again several times, checking TPS voltage, percentage and pre-ignition. Nothing strange happens when I slowly increase revs. She just dies.
Here is a video of me very slowly increasing throttle: (also note the clear metallic rattle still present as described in http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19627)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnTi_vtetIM
Any ideas? Cam position sensor? TPS?
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Take a close look at this schematic
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif
Take a pencil and draw a line down the left hand side of the ECU and across the bottom of items 55,54,53,52,51,50 and then
up around the bottom of Fuse 1 and 2
How many wires did you cross?
Only three, what do they do?
The first one at connector 58 is just the signal to the Tach, it could be left off and the only thing is the tach would stop working.
The third one is battery positive to Fuse 1 and 2, obviously that's important but very easy to check.
The second one is the only one of any significance it tells the ECU to turn On, if that one is alive and you have 2 good relays chances are the bike will run.
Wouldn't it be handy to know if it's alive or not?
So what am I getting at?
This will have to wait until monday... Then I can print the schematic in A3 format at work and follow the lines - impossible on the screen.
MartyNZ - Interesting read! But if boiling starts at 40deg C, does that mean the fuel composition is different in e.g. African countries, because heat can rise up to and above 40deg?
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So, update:
- Reset valves to 0.15 and 0.20. Right side is louder then left, but still acceptable. She revs better and sounds louder (=better
).- Replaced 30A fuse holder for a new one rated to 35A, with a new 30A fuse.
- Re-routed fuel line away from cylinder.
- Installed new fuel pump manufactured by NASA:
Just kidding
. Covered the intake line and fuel pump in reflective aluminium taping.I could not get my hands on anything better and this will at least do a good job at keeping out the heat...The idea behind only doing intake line and pump, is that after the pump the pressure will be higher (~3bar), so the evaporation point goes up significantly.
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(...)
Don't discount bad plugs
I have seen a couple of times where the relay bases look just fine but a connector hasn't clicked in properly, when the relay is inserted it makes intermittent contact, easy to check just push on each one with a small tool.
One time when I had a bad regulator the bike would rev up, cut out, slow down a bit and repeat in a pretty consistent cycle but idled and low revs just fine.
I figured the ECU was cutting out on over Voltage to protect itself.
Is there any way to check the plugs? Measure resistance? I've ensured they are properly gapped, they are in good condition and equally colored as well.
I've checked all relay base connections one by one after I squeezed them together one by one again.
I am worried about what you just described on the regulator, as this really resembles the behavior I am getting. I know it should do 13.8-14.4v at 3k rpm, but could we agree what the max should be at 6k rpm? Then I can check that.
FWIW, this is used on aircraft to insulate fuel lines.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?s=FIRESLEEVE&x=0&y=0
I will relocate the fuel line which is close to the cylinder and see if I can source anything close to that to put around it here in the NL.
So, in short, my plan of action:
- Relocate and if possible isolate fuel line.
- Reinstall fuel tank and warm up bike.
- Rev at 3k and 6k rpm to check voltage.
- Drive, with special focus on getting the bike hot (warming her up in 15min, then letting her idle outside for say.... 10min? Is that too long? I want to prevent overheating...). Then drive again (close to home) to see if the issue returns.
- Maybe when she is really hot, again measure at 3k and 6k rpm?
If she does fail again, bring her home, and again measure voltage when she cuts out. Would you say a normal multimeter would suffice, or would that not be able to pick up the spikes in voltage? I want to be prepared.
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I just can't imagine it boiling the fuel with 23deg C outside... And also not while doing 80kmh (which is when it happened as well).
I dont feel like relocating the pump all the way forward. Not just because of the added work, but also because it puts it in a more exposed place, where rain can get to it easily.
What's the other people's feel for this? Just relocate the line close to the cylinder (on the pic in my hand) and replace the fuse, reinstall the tank and give it a retry? Blame it on either the fuse or the tight valves? Or relocate the pump?
Or is there anymore to explore?
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From what you describe, it seems like there might be several problems. Once you have retorqued the heads and reset the valve clearances, it will be a little better....if the above are wrong, would that not cause issues all the time instead of suddenly?
Also, when she starts acting up, it is a complete loss of power. When I keep the throttle open, she surges hugely, from no power to all power in seconds.
Finding 1:
- Checked valves: they were too tight! Right were around (I/O) 0.10/0.18 and left (I/O) 0.06/0.10mm. Could that really be the issue? Apparently the gaskets compress more after the rebuild than I anticipated. I would guess that after re-torquing the heads it should be done, but it wasn't.
Finding 2:
- My intake fuel line is located quite close to the left cylinder.
Could that be the issue? It has never played up before...
I had relocated the fuel pump to above the spine already as you can see.
Then comes fuel heating. Vapour lock explains your symptoms. Perhaps the area under the tank is acting as a little heat trap. Normally there is insulating panels on the lower surfaces of the tank to limit engine heat reaching the fuel inside. This tells us that it gets hot under there. If you try moving the pump away from this area, back to its original location, or above the oil cooler, then it may be better. Insulating the low pressure fuel hose and the pump is still useful.
I see that you have pod filters. What have you done with the temp sensor that was in the air box? It is important, and so is its location. See previous posts here: http://www.v11lemans...e=1?do=findComment&comment=218202 and
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19764&hl=
The ECU cannot set the mixture correctly if the air inlet temp sensor is missing or located in a bad place.
I had already retorqued the heads and reset the valve clearances, but it seems that the gaskets have compressed more afterwards...
Would you say that underneath the spine would be a better location for the pump?
The temp sensor I have relocated to underneath the seat, all the way near the fuse box.
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Mine was at +20 when it was running lean. I put it back to +40, and it's fine again.
It certainly sounds like the same issues I was having on this trip, but my engine/PC map may not equal your situation.
At any rate, I'd look at reasons it could be lean. Air leak, etc.
It could be wrong, but I can't imagine that causing such a sudden effect (and otherwise perfect running). She does not sneeze/pop or whatsoever, until she suddenly does.
I don't have a CO meter/gas analyzer to check it though...
I guarantee the TPS setting is out. Mine did the same exact thing.....
Nope, I had reset it a month ago and it still is where I left it.
Still sounds like tps and/or inlet rubbers... plus have you cleaned out the butterflies? They do get crudded up some- must affect the initial opening??
She is decently tuned. Also, if the above are wrong, would that not cause issues all the time instead of suddenly?
Also, when she starts acting up, it is a complete loss of power. When I keep the throttle open, she surges hugely, from no power to all power in seconds.
Update:
- Checked coils: no cracks. Measured them: 3.0 Ohm and 1.0 Ohm. Measured spark plug leads with 90deg caps on: both 5.8kOhm. I would say that should be OK.
Finding 1:
- Checked valves: they were too tight! Right were around (I/O) 0.10/0.18 and left (I/O) 0.06/0.10mm. Could that really be the issue? Apparently the gaskets compress more after the rebuild than I anticipated. I would guess that after re-torquing the heads it should be done, but it wasn't.
Finding 2:
- My intake fuel line is located quite close to the left cylinder. See also this picture:
Could that be the issue? It has never played up before...
I had relocated the fuel pump to above the spine already as you can see.
Finding 3:
- My 30 amp fuse has been rather warm...
Following this: I have noticed my indicators becoming quite fast on the highway (>4.5k rpm). Could the regulator becoming faulty? How do I check it? What voltage should it do at 3k rpm and what at 5k rpm?
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- When I pull the clutch as soon as she surges and close throttle, she idles like nothing happened. When I open the trottle again (2-3k rpm, no load) she startsbackfiringpopping into the exhaust and eventually dies.If you read through the spine raid report I posted yesterday, I dealt with that the whole trip. The issue was the CO trim set too lean. What is your's set at?
Mine's set at 10 (and never has been different in the last two years)
V11 Sport 2001 intermittent stalling
in Technical Topics
Posted
Of course, otherwise it would not make any sense