FuelCooler
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Posts posted by FuelCooler
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I use Pilot Power 2CT. They are fantastic tyres, totally confidence inspiring. But they are SSport tyres - I don't get much more than 1,500m to a set - wear is fast but v even. KB
Damn, this is what I was afraid of. The original Pilot Power sport tire was lasting to long for them to make $$. I hope they don't discontinue it. But they will. Progress... <_>
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Steve, you can trust with 100% confidence that I've carefully read every outside source that I post on this Forum, and every article and source that I link here.
I'm afraid that I'm confused by your post, and don't understand your point. I thought the article I posted was quite straightforward. It appears that you believe I've failed to make a distinction between the tires you listed and racing tires, but I can't comprehend how you've arrived at this conclusion, since the article above makes the distiction, the topic of the thread is race tires, there are specific comments in the article about race tires that contrast their design with street tiresas well as mention of the differing requirements relative to heat cycles, per the discussion.
Sorry Ratchet
Perhaps I should have reposted your Sport touring Wet /Dry quotes (as well) from that German magazine tire comparison test. I didn't want a huge post. My point is: From reading your posts on tires in general, it seems that some on this forum might think that alot of tires other than the following Sport Touring type tires - Metzeler Z6s, Pirelli Stadas, Michelin Pilot Roads, are for racers or track day bikes, and therefore unnecessary on our V11s. I am not saying you have ever said those things on this forum, but I sense some may suspect you are implying that (well at least one,...me).
I completely agree that DOT race rubber will perform poorly on the street. But just because a tire may be advertised as super-sticky and in use is fast wearing, that doesn't make it race rubber or that it should be regarded as poison on a V11. Again, not that you said that.
I used to race on Michelin Hi-Sports (as did many others) when they only came in one compound (very early 1990's). They were also my street tires. They were fine street tires. Toward the end of the 1993 season, Michelin started selling different compounds for their Hi-Sport tire (A or B, IIRC). This was about the time that Dunlop started selling there 364 (?) Rear Sportmax. I never tried either, but I believe those were 'Race Only DOT' tires and not fit for the street.
If I have lost my mind in thinking that someone (other than myself) might assume they should beware of 'sport' tires on their Guzzi because of your comments, please forgive me.
FWIW- I have tried ME4's, M3 Race (STD on TL1000), Pilot Roads, Pilot Sports, Sportmax'es D205, D207 and D208, Original Battleaxe's that came on the 1993 CBR900RR, K591's (and K591 Race) and Pirelli Dragons. The only ones that spooked me a bit were the ME4's and the 3 year old used K591 Races a buddy gave me. Hell, I did a track day on the 204s in 1991 (GSXR750) and on the 208's in 2000 (F4 Honda). Sticky enough to out run my buddies on Michelin Sports!
Cheers,
Steve
Edit-Yes, the above Sport Rider article clearly stated D207 as a street tire. But the New Sticky Qualifiers are street tires as well, regardless of the name.
Ratchet sincerely I apologize for my Paranoia I searched and I found- 10-27-07 Ratchet quote
"I wear my tires all the way to the edges, and I select tires for mountain road riding that tends to be far more challenging and demanding in every respect than I reckon most riders experience on a regular basis, myself included. Having ridden on many Sport tires on the Guzzi, I prefer Sport/Touring tires for their far superior mileage, whilst giving away little to Sport tires in terms of handling and grip -- and in at least two cases, giving away NOTHING in terms of handling, quite the opposite"
Again sorry! I failed to read this post!
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I can understand that a race tyre should be at its expiry point as the race ends, having given its all in the process. But I can find no evidence for the above.
In F1, for instance, tyres are often used more than once. Admittedly not used to their full potential at first but they are certainly heat cycled more than once.
Can anyone explain the chemistry involved?
Mike, I offer no explanation for the chemistry involved, but you may've missed this, cross-posted from another thread. :
Possibly worth a re-re-post here. . .
Street vs. Race
Choosing the right tire for the job
Street vs. Race
Choosing the right tire for the job
By Andrew Trevitt, SportRider Magazine
We know what you're thinking: Those namby-pamby street tires are for weenies, and the DOT race tires work way better on the street, right? Wrong. While you're struggling with a stone-cold Supersport toss-off that's rock hard from too many heat cycles, your buddies on their high-performance street tires will be long gone.
Race tires are specifically meant to do one thing: Stick like glue, for one heat cycle. To that end, they are designed with an entirely different philosophy from street tires, and those differences make them unsuitable for street use. One obvious difference is most race tires have fewer grooves for more grip. And while this is great on a dry road, riding in the rain can get pretty hairy. But this is just what you can see, and it's perhaps more important to know what's going on inside the tire to fully understand the differences.
Max Martin, with Avon Tyres, says its Azaro Supersport bun is designed with a high arch and very high crown, particularly the front tire. This makes a race bike steer quickly (at the expense of stability), and gives more surface area on the side of the tire for more traction at full lean. The Azaro Sport street tire has a rounded profile, which puts more tread on the road when the bike is straight up for better wear, as well as being more stable and allowing easier line changes in midcorner. Put the race tire on the street and it will wear quicker due to the pointy profile.
Martin also pointed out differences in casing design, with the Supersport tire having an additional ply and tighter winding for higher cornering loads. However, on larger bumps found on public roads, this extra rigidity will have the race tire chattering earlier than would the softer and more compliant street tire.
Sport Tire Services' Dennis Smith points out that the Dunlop D207 Sportmax is designed to work correctly at the reduced temperatures found on the street, as opposed to the higher temperatures found on the racetrack. And that you'd almost never be able to generate track temperatures during a street ride to take advantage of the extra grip offered from a race tire. Smith also mentioned the material and production costs are totally different for each type, with the race tires costing significantly more than the street tires.
According to Mike Manning of Dunlop Tires, the D207GPs utilize a "cut breaker construction," in which the plies are overlapped to give good side grip. Compare that with the D207 Sportmax, which has a "jointless belt construction," giving more stability and a smoother ride. Manning also added that a street tire's rubber compound is designed to go through more heat cycles, as well as having silica added to give better wet grip.
[Trevitt's bottom line:]
So let's see, a street tire will generally have better wear, more stability and superior wet-weather performance compared with a race tire, offer similar grip (and most likely more) at real-world tire temperatures, and give constant performance over many heat cycles-all for less money. Sign us up.
Everytime I read one of these tire posts by Ratchet I feel I need to point something out that I believe Ratchethack hasn't had the time or need to get into, so I will, just to clear up some confusion:
The Dunlop D207, D208 and Qualifier, the Michelin Pilot Sports, the Metzler M1s and Pirelli Corsas (not Supercorsas) are not DOT race tires or Sport Touring tires. They are sportbike tires that are absolutely fine for the street. They may wear out faster, but they still are streetbike tires.
Cheers,
Steve
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Back to the original subject:
Fuelcooler: A friend of mine crashed his ballabio this summer and now he has decided to part it out. He came over to my garage yesterday with the engine block, asking to use my tools to get off the rear main bearing and the nuts on the cam and crankshaft. The block is in great shape. I can put you in contact with him. You might also want to just get all the bracing from him and bolt it all on.
Cool Greg,
Sounds interesting. I will PM you tonight.
Thanks,
Steve
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Hot damn.....................oh, not even close yet. Guess it isn't cold enough out for winter activities.
It's getting colder.
Monarch 125?
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HEY WHAT CAN U SAY YOU SINGLE GUYS HAVE ALL THE GOOD THINGS IN LIFE LIKE MONEY, PEACE AND QUITE, PLEANTY OF ROOM ENDLESS SUPPLY OF PORN. WE TIED DOWN FELLAS JUST PUT OUR THINGS IN YOUR GARAGE JUST TO SEE HOW THE OUTHER SIDE LIVES.
Well...er .....it's not an ENDLESS supply......
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Fuelcooler keeps his 500 in his computer room. If he does anything stupid hell be dead for sure he lives alone.
Don't worry, I will be fine.
BRENTTODD keeps his Rototiller in FuelCoolers garage. My other neighbor keeps his Bonnie Black in there as well. They can't let me die, or else they would have to move their stuff.
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Two more guesses. Penton or.....Sachs motorcycle.
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I am running Pilot Powers (not the sport touring Pilot Roads). I have 6000 miles on the rear and 7000 on the front. They are squared off from Interstate running this summer, but othewise would last another 500-1000 miles. A buddy of mine with an R1 told me they would last 7000. He was right, and I am shocked. I do keep 40 psi in the rear. But I may try the Z6 or Diablo Strada's next spring.
Cheers,
Steve
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FWIW-
Hailwoods roadway appears to have much greater positive camber. I know he used to wear off his toes, but as impressive as Mikes lean is (and the bike angles look similar in the pics) his elbows were never in any danger (as long as he wasn't crashing). Regardless off the width debate, tires are much sticker today. Progress.
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Cold, rain and wind today. How about the name of the company that offered this 125cc machine?
I'll give it a shot, it's raining here too.
Maico?
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Thanks for the thoughts and for the Martin Mars water bomber, Van.
It was another very near miss for Yours Truly.
I was evac'd out for another 3 days, but no damage to me personally, other than loss of a few orange trees due to high wind & temps, and no power irrigation control. Many friends were spared, others were not.
Last I heard the Martin Mars sat on the tarmac ONE FULL DAY (Tuesday, IIRC) as hundreds of houses were burning to the ground, while US Customs inspected it.
I am just happy you are OK.
Steve
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Worst case senario...welding the cases....shhhhhhucks. Hmmm. Late cases might be an option. Were silver cases ever made with the required extra material? Any idea what a bare set of cases go for? Any one have a blistered set of the black ones they want to sell? Damn, there goes the Ohlins fund!
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That really sucks. I can relate. Hang in there. I dread the day when our little city burns like Los Alamos.
I really hope you San Diego folks are OK. I wish I could help too.
Steve
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hey how did this trun into tire thread. Wait till you guys see my new avon 320 rear tire on my west coast chopper 22 inc rim it really hot
Sweet, your bike needed more chrome!
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Steve
Me too - I like the handling of the old short frame KRs.
I installed that triangular bracket too and could not find any difference in driving behavior.
I also installed the front bracket from the newer model- no difference either.
I would also like to install the lower bracket with the lower rails to the engine - but welding on the engine block in that area could be some risk as this is the area of the rear crank bearing. If there comes up a good idea on that subject, I am the first to upgrade my frame.
Hi Motoguzznix,
I did not realize the front motor bracket was different on the late models. I might have to get that one too.
For clarity - the 'lower bracket with the rails' is the one I am refering to when I mention the triagulation of the porkchops, not the triangular shaped bracket that connects the bellhousing to the frame.
I don't believe there is any welding required to add the lower brace. I appears to be machined (after painting) to allow bolts to thread into the thick area of the casting where (internally) the crank case ends and the bellhousing begins. I could be wrong. That's why I would like to get my hands on some late model cases for measuring and comparing.
I promise to post photos as soon as the work begins.
Cheers,
Steve
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Let me put it this way: If you had your suspension setup correctly, had a decent set of tires, and aggressively rode your favorite twisting mountain road (using all the tread to the edges) with your 180 on a 5.5" wheel, then ran it the same way with a properly matched 160/60 on a 4.5" wheel (all other parameters being equal), I reckon you'd arrive at the same conclusion, and there wouldn't be anything close to any doubt about it . . .
OK, just for some reference: I am older and slower now, but in 1993 WERA sent me an expert license after 5 weekends of racing (including the GNF), I was hoping they would let me race the Seca II Challange, which was novice only. Nope. Didn't even get a full season as a novice!
Plus, I have always been my own tuner. Not that I am a master tuner or rider, but I am no beginner either!
Ratchet, I like you.
Answer me one question, yes or no. Just yes or no.
Have you ridden a properly set up SHORT FRAME V11 with a 5.5 rim and 180 tire?
EDIT: Have I ridden a properly set up SHORT FRAME V11 with a 4.5 rim and 160 tire?
No.
But I have ridden mine with the 160 and the forks dropped 9mm. It handled fine like that if you didn't pitch it around too hard (soft springs).
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As an alternative idea, one could fabricate some brackets to run from from the left pork chop to the starter mounting bolts, and from the right porkchop to the case.
And then make some bracket like the one on the Japanese site
That stuff looks pretty good dlaing, and I was thing of making something similar, until I got my hands on the Guzzi parts....
Quoting myself from my repliy to Baldini:
"Some folks might not realize this, but the late model brace triagulates the porkchops together as well as run up to the motor. The early brace does neither."
Cheers
Steve
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If you're going to the trouble of doing it at all, have you considered more elegant ways to brace the frame/sideplates. I think the Guzzi method is pretty slapdash & ugly. Sportis had a brace between spine & top of gearbox.
I have installed the Sporti brace already, and the biggest diffence I can tell (like Ratchet) is a bit more vibration!
The late model Guzzi method isn't very elegant, but they are the ones who counted the beans and did it that way. It cost them $ to put that extra / different part on the bike, I figure there is sound engineering behind it. Some folks might not realize this, but the late model brace triagulates the porkchops together as well as run up to the motor. The early brace does neither.
Cheers
Steve
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FC: I think I have one of those block at work. I'll check on Tuesday. If I do, we can discuss options such as lending it to you or measuring it.
Thanks, Greg. Any help is more than apprieciated.
Steve
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So any tiny improvement in handling due to improved chassis ridgidity (that could only EVER manifest itself at extreme limits of the handling envelope, ONLY with a proper match of wheels and tires) would seem to've been forfeited -- and then some! -- before you start, n'est-ce pas?!?!
I forgot to state the obvious: for handling, it is NOT necessarily a missmatch. A 180/55 on a 5.5 rim with a 120/70 on a 3.5 rim has been the wheel and tire combo on some of the most fabulous handling bikes made. All modern 600 sportbikes since about 1999. 851-888, Big Monsters, SS 900 and 1000 Ducatis. Some GSXR 750's came with them (they went back and forth with a 190/50 on a 6.0) and various Bimotas . Even the 1990-1995 ZX7 had that set up. And it got worse. A 190/50 on a 6.0 became the standard with the same small front on Jap liter bikes, MV Auastas, Ducati 916-999's, Aprilias(although some might have had 180's).
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Steve, I've gotta admire your ambition in tackling the task. It's been the topic o' many a fireside chat at the Guzzi rallies I've attended -- among the company of those longtime Guzzi Pro's with well established qualifications for comment!
By your signature I can see that you have a sense of humor, so I rest assured that you won't be taking too much offense at a campfire-grade comment or 2 from Y'ers Truly? . . .
If having a sense of humor means that others laugh at me, then true...
By my reckoning and that of a few Pro's, adding the late model bracing could be done with the engine in the frame -- by a very skilled craftsman. To my knowledge, you'd be the first. Otherwise, the motor would have to come out for milling on the ol' Bridgeport, among other operations best suited for a variety of other great big walloping machine shop tools.
Yippie! I would be first!
I would do it the right(-er) way...out with the motor and on to the Bridgeport.But the obvious fly in the ointment here would seem to be the fact that you've ALREADY compromised the handling of this, the (IMHO) best handling of all V-11's, by crippling it with a mismatched sea-anchor wide-butt rear wheel and tire!That like telling me my girlfriend runs worse in Stilettos then in pumps.
So any tiny improvement in handling due to improved chassis ridgidity (that could only EVER manifest itself at extreme limits of the handling envelope, ONLY with a proper match of wheels and tires) would seem to've been forfeited -- and then some! -- before you start, n'est-ce pas?!?!So beyond the benefit of bragging rights and bar talk, this would seem the equivalent of fitting truck wheels and tires on a Porsche 911, and then bracing the chassis for improved handling at "inspired" speeds on challenging roads!
My bike handles fine! I am not going for 'better handling' with this mod, I am going for a stiffer chassis to better cope with loading I am planning to add with engine mods and sticky tires.
oh yeah and But again, as a purely academic exercise for a long-time Pro machinist, I have to applaud the effort, and would eagerly await reports of your progress, my friend!Thanks, it wont stop with this modification; I will ruin this bike yet.
Cheers,
Steve
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... The KTM 's arn't cheap and the dealer network sucks. Yes they do break down! Many of the KTM dealers won't even handle the road bikes because of the cost involved.
Yikes! I could be heading in a downward spiral in terms of dealer networks. BMW to Guzzi to KTM
Help me Honda
Help, help me Honda!
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This will be part of my winter fun, so I will start the questioning early!
I plan on adding the extra late model (2003 long frame) bracing to my 2000 short frame (the tubes that run from the lower pork chop, under the sides of the trans, to the engine). I have the late model parts in hand but I need to know 2 or 3 things.
1. Does anyone have late model cases to measure (+/- 0.015) the location for the necessary holes?
2. Are the early case castings different internally in a way (I would doubt) that would prevent this.
3. Anyone done this?
Actually it might help if someone has a broken set of cases (Scura?) I could buy/borrow to measure and compare.
FWIW-I was a machinist for 15 years, so be as technical as you like.
Thanks in advance,
Steve
Late Model timing chest to spine subframe
in Technical Topics
Posted
The late model V11 front motor bracing is more robust, but will it fit a short frame? I need measurements from the upper trans mount bolt on the spine to each of the front engine frame's attaching bolts on the spine. Somewhere the late frame is longer, I hope the extra length is forward of those mounting points!
Thanks in advance,
Steve