FuelCooler
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Posts posted by FuelCooler
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(FuelCooler)
Ratchethack, dlaing and others,
Do you want to start a new thread (I know this stuff has been covered before) or can you suggest an existing one to attach it to?
I would like to continue with the fork /shock topic but we will bog down this gearbox thread if we don't do something quick!
:!: The following is the birth of a new topic thread that started as a hi-jack of the 'Re-sealing the 6 speed. As Ratchethack points out, I am the hi-jacker and the hi-jackee. I hope this isn't worse then leaving it in the original post! Oh well here goes.....
Front also feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesn't bottom.Ooops,
I didn't mean they never bottom. They are using full stroke (they will bottom if called upon, but they do make a 'pissst' sound on low speed compression (like slowly riding over a 1.5 inch curb). Never heard that before on Showas or KYBs. I will measure the oil height on dissassembly.
I actually set my air gap (after setting sag and getting a rough setting for comp. damping) by a test very similar to what you asked me to do, braking over a bump(s) and even setting down wheelies firmly (not slamming). I have a very good feel for what I want and start with the level low (big gap) and work my way up (less gap). I am very tempted to start at 110mm.
I am also curious about my fork springs. Stock they should be way softer then my numbers indicate, so someone could have set them up already.
I guess you and Ratchethack werent satisfied with rear spring alone and purchased shocks?
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OK you pirates! At least we have the suspension specs in one place here!
Ratchethack, dlaing and others,
Do you want to start a new thread (I know this stuff has been covered before) or can you suggest an existing one to attach it to?
I would like to continue with the fork /shock topic but we will bog down this gearbox thread if we don't do something quick!
My gearbox fasteners looked new and came out easy. Although, too new compared to the other fasteners on the bike
. Thanks for the link BrianG. That looks like a great source. -
Steve, assuming sags were measured correctly, IMHO f'er starters, it looks to me like a CLASSIC case of rear spring far too low rate for your riding weight, preloaded too far in a futile attempt to compensate. It also looks like the spring rate in the forks may be a little stiff, but in combo with that rear shock spring, I'd expect some histrionics like wot you describle because of the delta between stiff fork springs and soft shock spring.
My approach would be to upgrade the shock spring and/or shock at the same time and leave the fork alone until you get the rear end dialed in.
Looks like you had the right idea with raising the fork tubes by 10 mm in an attempt to compensate for rear squat. A proper rate shock spring would make it a Brand New World, IMHO.
In case you haven't seen these, I've found 'em to be superb guides:
http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html
http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm
Hope this helps!
Thanks Ratchet,
Yeah, anymore preload in the rear and I will lose the bike only sag.
FWIW it was 20 deg. F when I did the sag. The fork numbers look strange to me (25 / 35) too close?
Racetech method for measuring sag, BTW.
Have you got your Wilbers shock dialed in yet? I am soooo close to going that way as well.
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The tool is to release the input shaft from the CASE..... not from the transmission cover!
All of the shafts remain captured in the "transmission cover" and should NOT be removed for purposes of re-sealing the transmission. It is not necessary. There are no seals or gaskets that need attention in the "transmission cover".
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Thats exactly what I meant about the disassembly.
I will update my edit for clarity with your quote, thanks again BrianG.
Well, Steve, I've got a few ideas, yes. You may've seen a few o' my posts on this? Pete just sent me a PM this morning on this. Seems a bloke in OZ was setting up a Rosso Mandello with Marz 040 USD fork, and had 3 different suggested refill volumes in front of 'im. My suggestion was 100 mm AIR GAP, forget volume altogether, and 125/150 synth. CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID.
So wot 'r y'er objectives with springs? If I can help, I'll do my humble best.
I will hi-jack my own thread for a post or two!
Here is what I have feel wise:
Bike squats and weaves a bit while turning under hard acceleration (especialy high speed).
Rear feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesnt feel like it bottoms.
Front feels vague during all phases of the turn (turn-in to exit).
Front also feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesn't bottom.
Bike gives a decent freeway ride.
Here is the set-up:
Spring rates are unknown but the rear appears to be stock white Sachs.
Last fork / shock service unknown. Suspension fluid type / quantity unknown.
185 lbs geared-up rider and 1/2 tank of fuel.
Rear sag - 6mm bike only
-34mm laden
Front sag -25mm bike only
-35mm laden
Rear Rebound -13 clicks out
Rear Compression -23 clicks out
Front Rebound - 9 clicks out
Front Compression - 12 clicks out
Forks through upper clamp 10mm.
Bitubo damper set minimum.
I want to change both fork and shock fluid before I condemn the chassis.
I am 100% an air gap method guy.
To be honest I havent done much but back the compression out for better compliance but I feel it is low speed compression damping (fork and shock) / combined with a bit too much rear sag that are causing my issues.
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Good thought, Steve. My bad on the mistaken "no special tools" recommendation early in this thread. I was going on a combination of semi-first-hand and second-hand info, believed wot I posted, and truly had no intent, nor expectation of deception!!
I've likewise edited my post.
Thankfully this Forum has (again) set me straight!
Mr. Roper stated he hadn't been all the way in one yet, and you didn't claim you had for that matter, Ratchethack! Even if one of you had been in one and forgot, I have no hard feelings. You, Pete, BrianG and many others here are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience. I appreciate all your help and support. Next, on to the forks..........
You have any ideas about them, Ratchethack? Something about springs I think? Oil height?
Thanks guys,
Steve
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Got it apart!
The issue was getting that ring-nut off of the input shaft. I borrowed the right tool from a friend and it spun off without big effort. The underlying "internal body of the clutch" pulled off by hand.... no puller needed. Once the shifter forks were removed the case lifted off cleanly and easily.
I used 4, 8mm X 60mm bolts in the 4 threaded holes of the output side of the transmission plate that carries the shafts, as a "work-stand" to keep things upright and level.
Now I just have to glue it back together.......
Excellent BrianG.
I was waiting until one of us got the thing apart, so now I am going to edit my original post to reflect that a special tool is needed to take the second rear cover off. (Just incase they don't read through the thread before starting this project!)
I will mock up a stand like yours as well, but I still have 10 days until my tools get here.
Go YamaBond!
Where did you get your output shaft seal? Bearing house or MG?
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Great! I'm a tool nut anyway...
Who is Rolf and how do I get ahold of him?
I did a search for him on the internet but came up empty. So I called Moto International and ordered the 'internal body of the clutch' holder and the KM-05 style Guzzi socket (and folding washer) to get this trans apart. The tools were over $100 but, they will be right here if I run into trouble (Thanks for the offer though, Pete
). I would have made the tools before but I now live 500 miles from the machine shop I used to work for. And yes, BrianG you were definately right: I was stuck at the same road block! My tools will take well over a week to get here, so I will be eagerly waiting reports of your progress!
Steve
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Good luck with that.... I'm at the same place and am stuck.......
Let me know how you get the ring-nut off of the input shaft..........
It looks like the shafts stay with the cover and not with the case. But you are ahead of me. I very well could be mistaken and be about to be trying to remove the input shaft as well.
I hope someone who's done it tells us our next move, if not I will let you know my progress tomorrow night.
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Well, thanks, Dave. A generous offer, not sure wot I'd do with your forks, but it's good to know there's a pair available for exploratory surgery, if this would be the idea? I've already had my own forks thoroughly dismantled right down to the cartridges. To my thinking, the only mysterious parts remain within the cartridges. This is just me, but with little specialized knowledge of damper valves, they'd be more of an esoteric thing best left for meddling by suspension Pro's. I don't have any interest in modifications here, though I have no doubt that there are many who would.
The drawing doesn't shed any light on damper valve actuation, and it looks to me like it's the 043 forks, not the 040. Wot I hope to discover from Marzocchi is a manual that clarifies fork preload adjustment and explains the 22 mm location of the jam nut. Again, I'd made assumptions about this (that now appear to've been correct) the first time I had mine apart, and have maintained them ever since according to these assumptions, cutting new spacers and setting the blue nuts back to their stock position. I was later evidently misinformed about wot appear to be threaded adjusters for fine-tuning preload.
You could vary the 22mm setting to set the correct sag only (do not ride it!) to determine the correct final spacer length at the 22mm setting. This could save the time and material of making several sets.
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Good thinking
It is worth the extra work to make sure it is done right!
By the way, you do know about Redline ShockProof, right?
And while you have it all apart be sure to check the shift spring for binding.
Update 02-28-07
Good news,
My trans recall work was on record with MGNA. Rod bolt recall did not apply to my VIN (Thank you Greg Field). So here is where I am at:
1. Trans is out and cleaned.
2. No cracks found.
3. No loose bolts on the rear most cover.
3. Rear cover off, no loose bolts found on the 'second' rear cover (the one that carries the gears).
4. Leak is coming from the seam between the 'second' cover and the trans case.
Now I assume that next I put it in neutral, open the side cover, pull out the shift forks and unbolt and remove the second cover (bringing out all three shafts with it)?
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Good thinking
It is worth the extra work to make sure it is done right!
By the way, you do know about Redline ShockProof, right?
And while you have it all apart be sure to check the shift spring for binding.
Yes, I will drink the Kool-aid and smile......the Redline ShockProof ('heavy' if I recall correctly) will be going in on assembly. It has regular Hypoid petro based stuff in it now.
You are talking about the shifter pawl spring, correct? The one that breaks because its the wrong size?
FuelCooler:
I work at a Guzzi dealership. If you PM me with your VIN info, I can have our service manager check to see if the recall work was done.
PM'ing you shortly, then out to the garage to crab the frame.
Thanks Greg.
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Hmm. My Pal with '04 LM has exactly the same thing goin' on, and it looks ominous........ Not that this necessarily explains it, but he's been known to do wheelies fairly regularly.
This (wheelies) sounds like me as well. When the oil light comes on, I count to 5 and set the front down. Just kiddin'.
I have the bike stripped down, ready for 'crabbing' and I still wouldn't place bets on the source of the leak.
MGNA used to track completed recalls pretty carefully. You might investigate it and see if y'ers is on file. I know mine is, and I got the "official" authorized Guzzi dealer work order signed-off. This gets Guzzi off the hook legally, so hopefully they'd have an interest in keeping good records.
My bike falls under the affected VIN #'s, should I contact a dealer to run the VIN (my local is FBF) or speak to MGNA? I understand some people have had varying luck with both of those choices.
Thanks
Steve
My tranny leaked, and I fixed it while leaving the tranny in the frame.
You may not be so lucky, but it may be worth a shot.
When you pull the airbox, you may get a better view.
I pulled the airbox, the shock, the starter, and the rear swing arm. This gave me access to pull the rear cover on the gear box. Once the cover was pulled, I tightened up the bolts on the inside that had loosened, re-guzzibonded (actually I think it was Permatex High Tack®)the rear cover, and put it all back together....Oh and I also pulled the gearbox side cover, but I don't recall if that was necessary.
No gaskets were used and no seals were beaten....just gasket sealant, and only on the rear cover.
I contemplated going one level deeper to seal the surface that had leaked, but I was unsure how to get the case open, and the loose bolts were a dead giveaway to the cause of the leak.
Good Luck!
If I had done this during riding season (and needed special tools), I would try that first! If the bolts are loose I will report that back.
Thanks dlaing.
This forum is fantastic.
Steve
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Sorry,
Although I am perverse enough to pull things apart for a look-see, the box is leaking from what appears to be at the seams in the upper mount area but it doesn't look like it is cracked. I am going to remove the trans, clean it and put some powder on it to see where it is leaking from. The recall(s) have not been done on my watch, but claim to have been performed. Can I tell by looking at the internals?
From what you and Ratchet tell me, I can dissassemble the trans enough to re-seal it with normal tools and perhaps a press?
The trans only leaks when ridden, but it leaked sitting still as well before I re-sealed the side access cover.
Thanks Pete,
Steve
If your bike has had the recall, (If needed?) and isn't leaking why are you doing it? Unless you just want to of course, which id fine, if a bit perverse and is the sought of thing I do
.Incidentally I've not had to go all the way in to an *old* six speed yet. There are a couple of peg nuts in that require there special tools if you want to take the shafts apart, (I have a set of Rolf's tools which include these, as I said, I haven't had to use 'em yet but I'm happy to loan 'em to *regulars* on the board who I feel I can trust to send 'em back if required.) and the shock absorber requires a press to take to pieces but apart from that I think it's all pretty much nuts and bolts stuff.
Pete
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Thanks Ratchethack,
The recall subject concerns me a bit as well. I am the second offical owner though I did not buy it from the original owner. The guy I bought it from (straight up honest guy) had to take it as a package deal w/ a Ghezzi-Brian and was told both recalls were done. It had 14000 miles on it when I bought it (19800 now). Judging by the light scratching / chipping around the bell-housing and output shaft housing it (the trans) appears to have been removed before. I think I will contact the original owner and ask him. I don't want the con-rods taking a peek outside of the cases either.
Thanks for the porkchop advise. I need to the paint the left one any way, as I did the faded right one in October. Perfect timing!
I have a Harbor Freight lift with a Handy Vise wheel vise. With tie downs it holds the bike very well. I guess I will run some ratchet straps up over some beams in the garage to hold the rear frame up. I was planning on doing it the way you did, but is there a reason you can't just rotate the whole frame aound the front mount after removing the swing arm, rear trans mounts and muffler mounts?
I plan on doing a bunch of poking around (including adding the extra trans bracket) while I have it apart. Suspension oil change as well.
Thanks again,
Steve
No special tools, Steve. It's really pretty straightforward. I assume you're aware of the trans recall on this year Guzzi, and this work is done? I had my trans out one day, took the trans to the dealer for "inside the box" recall work, had it back in and buttoned up the next day, on the road again the next. One thing I found that saves some grief (see "crabbing the frame" procedure) is removing only the left-hand side pork chop, which allows you to leave the rear subframe and rear part of the wiring harness intact, supported on the right-hand pork chop. I found it makes good sense to suspend both steering head and rear subframe from above, which lessens the risk of a tip-over while y'er wrenchin' on it. Good time to threadlock and lube everything the Luigi's missed in Mandello.
Have fun.
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!!!! Update Read this first!!!!
If you want to reseal the 1st and specifically the 2nd rear cover you will need a KM-05 peg socket with a small enough outer diameter to fit on the input shaft were the clutch plate rides. Rolf Halvorsen tools are very well regarded!
QUOTE(BrianG @ Mar 5 2007, 08:17 PM)
The tool is to release the input shaft from the CASE..... not from the transmission cover!
All of the shafts remain captured in the "transmission cover" and should NOT be removed for purposes of re-sealing the transmission. It is not necessary. There are no seals or gaskets that need attention in the "transmission cover".
Read on.....
Hello folks,
I did a seach on this but only found some 5 speed info.
I am pulling the trans out of the the 2000 V11 this week to re-seal all the case joints with Grey Yamabond. Are there any special tools required? Anything strange to be aware of (besides the possible left upper mount area crack issue)? I have re-sealed the shift 'drum' case already and checked the breather.
Thanks in advance,
Steve
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Hello,
My name is Steve and I have been reading and utilizing this excellent site for over a year. It's time to introduce myself and start contibuting!
I am 41 years old and have been riding for 37 of those years. I love motorcycles of all kinds and have owned many from my first Honda XR-75 to my current 1990 GS500E and 2000 V11 Sport.
My father is a lifetime rider as well and owns some great old bikes (Atlas, 750 GT Duc, etc.) as well his 2005 FJR. I am from the USA and grew up in Hunterdon County, New Jersey, but I was born in California and spent 12 years in the Danville area of southern Virgina. I have been back in NJ for 3 years. Currently I have plenty of time and money to dedicate to motorcycling as I am without a girlfriend.
For 15 years, until October 2003, I worked in the aviation industry at a small FAA-PMA holding firm called Combustion Technologies, where we made pistons, rings and metal seals for general aviation use. In 1998 that firm got involved in suppling pistons for Hendicks Motorsports. So my work experience includes manual and CNC machining / set-up as well as alot of QC work.
I started steetbike riding in 1985 on a 1978 GS750. In 1993 I did some WERA roadracing on the same GS500 I own today. I also have done some track days and I hope to do one this year on the V11.
In May of 2003 my father and my buddy Glen shipped our bikes (I had a 1200 Bandit 'naked' at the time) to California and rode them back east. A great trip that I will do again on the Guzzi, although I would like to pass through Colorodo this time.
If I think I can add anything positive to this forum, I will try. But for now I just wanted to say hi and thank everyone here for a great forum.
Steve (FuelCooler)
For anyone interested, here is a list of bikes I have owned in order of ownership:
1974 XR-75
1978 RM125
1980 Maico 440
1978 CR125
1978 GS750 (two of them)
1983 GPZ1100
1990 DR650
1991 GSXR750
1993 CBR900
1990 GS500E (still got it)
1994 ZX7
1983 CR480
1987 CR500
1979 CB750K
1997 TL1000S
1989 CR500
1999 CBR600F4
2000 XR250
2001 1200 Bandit 'naked'
2002 BMW R1150R ABS
2000 V11 Sport, Silver
Now onto the forks
in Technical Topics
Posted
Yeah,
I wasn't clear there.
I have never been in these forks. They could have olive oil in them, set at 153.5mm! What I meant to say was when I set up my forks on other bikes I start out with a big air gap, but am tempted to start at 110mm on this bike which, from what I have read here, would be close. I may sound like a fool (and infact may be one) but I am new to using forums! My ideas about what is going on with the sag and spring is exactly what you (Ratchethack) and dlaing advised. I just want make sure I am not missing something that is specific to V11 set up (like the noise).
About the bottoming. It is seldom (remember that I ride on NJ pot holed and patched roads) and not severe unless I smash something big.
I figured it wasn't normal but the only other guy I have talked to has Ohlins on his V11. Great idea for finding the leak. Thanks.
This bike didn't get bad reviews for suspension in the tests I have read from 2000-2001 (even MCN), and with the correct springing should be pretty good (if the suspension fluid is fresh). New fluid for both ends is on my list but I would love to spend the $$ on the same shock as Ratchethack with the +5mm length.
Did you ever replace the shock fluid in the stock shock? If so what did you use?
Thanks for your patience guys,
Steve