pete roper
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Posts posted by pete roper
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Nah, you don't have to pull the motor. I haven't done the cam on a v11 but you have to remove the rocker gear, pushrods and sump. Open the timing chest and remove the sprockets and chain then pull out the cam. The followers will drop out as you do this but if you're replacing the cam it matters not a jot as you have to use new ones with a new cam anyway.
To install the new followers you coat 'em with thick grease and slot 'em on a philips head screwdriver through the oil holes in the sides of the followers and post 'em in through the front cam bearing and wiggle 'em up into their holes in the case. The grease holds them in, you then slip the new cam in and reassemble all the rest of the gubbins,.
Pete
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Offhand I couldn't give you a figure but I find it *just* possible to lift a motor on my own but don't like to as it's a real strain! Usually I rope one of the lads from Graham's workshop to help me as I'm way past trying to do myself a mischief lifting up heavy things that shouldn't be lifted alone!
Put it this way, if you try it on your own you WILL fart when you take the strain
Pete
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Really? Do I detect the smell of frogshit in the air
?What sort of washers are used with the mounting bolts? Given that all the alloy wheels I've seen that have gone tits-up have had the alloy marked by schnoore washers I wonder if this is a consideration? Perhaps the bolts or their washers are starting stress raisers in the alloy?
The torque argument sounds like a 'We haven't got a clue' answer to me.
Oh, Thanks for sending me the clutch Bruce. If I can see anything specific I'll let people know but obviously I'll just be making wild guesses probably so don't take what I say, (If anything.) as gospel.
Pete
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Hi to all on the forum. This is my first post, ( a lurker for a few years). I'm the guy Pete Roper was talking about from Melbourne Australia with the latest Scura clutch issue.
Bruce. I'd be really, really, interested to have a squizz at it if you'd let me. I've got to come down to Melboring at some point erasonably soon as I've got a motor and gearbox to drop off and my beautiful, lovely Convert to pick up. D'you know Phil Doland or John Ferguson? They're both in the Vic club I think. If you could drop it off to one of them or just get Steve Denny to send it up with my next parts order I'll just have a squizz at it and return it to you, I'll pay postage etc.
Pete
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No Dan, I'm just a mechanic who just happens to like Moto Guzzis and have been working on them for 25 years. I'm not a shit-hot race engine builder or anything special in any way at all but I do consider myself competent in my trade and in my selected field of work. It's my opinion that all too many people in the metal trades nowadays are more concerned with calling themselves 'Technicians' or some other damn fool name than they are about actually putting into practice what they were taught in college and should of learnt during their apprenticeships.
Especially with
which most of the young bloods see as ancient, obsolete, sh!tboxes this leads to a cavalier attitude and poor service which in turn leads to a poor reputation for the company. Lets face it when you have a reputation as bad as Guzzi it can't *all* be the product's fault !On the other hand, would you do a job where you had to train for at least 4 years, spent most of your work time surrounded by and covered in carcinogens for not a lot of money and had everyone think you're a lying c@nt? Nah. Probably not
I have never claimed I was sane either
Pete
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You're the guy I read your thread I believe a long time ago about the screwdriver puncture thing!
Well, I changed all my fluids- with the usual spill with the rear drive gunk! Hole's too small.
And when I started it up, NO RED LIGHT. I rode it around- keeping it under 4k and seems to be alright-- time will tell!
Thanks all.
Hurrgh! Well, you might just be lucky and have done no serious harm. It is a
after all which means you can't kill it with a shitty stick! .The usual cause for filters coming off is that people don't luricate the gasket/ seal before they screw them on. I know "Why would lubricating something stop it coming undone????" well, it's for the simple reason that as you tighten it the gasket will slide until it is compressed enough to hold the filter in place. If it isn't lubricated it will tend to deform and then with heat cycling it regains it's original form by unwinding the filter. In most cases this will only be a small amount and won't matter but on odd occasions it will either cause the filter to loosen or the gasket will tear. In either case you lose pressure and in some cases, like yours, it can have disastrous or near disastrous results.
All the more reason to do your own oil and filter changes!
Pete
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I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. Simply that it is extraordinarily rare. The thing is that I know for a fact that many, many people have had their motors out to fix seals that were completely fine and the problem just recurrs because the seal wasn't the problem in the first place. Just trying to save people the hassle, if they know this and the dealer doesn't a bit of gentle suggestion may save a heap of hassle.
Pete
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I didn't look carefully at your self-descripion thingy before. It's a '99 model, (Short frame? Yummy
) but that means that the poxy breather pipe is now 5 years old and if you ride it lots it's probably cooked. I'd go the hose before anything else. You haven't sudenly had a brain-fade and gone to synthetic oil from mineral have you?I'm told that there is a replacement pipe of higher quality than the original that is a John Deere part, (Which I find wonderfully appropriate
) but i haven't got a part#. Sorry.Pete
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If you rode it home three miles and it didn't lock up solid than it is highly unlikely to be a major problem. Plain bearings need a constant supply of oil under comparatively high pressure, if it ain't there they will kark it in seconds, not in many seconds. If you are tooling along at speed major damage will of been done even before the oil pressure light has time to come on as the mechanical switch takes time to operate.
Having said all that I would drain the oil, drop the sump, (not just the oil filter plate.) and check that the filter/thermostat housing is still bolted to the front of the case tightly. This isn't much of a chore and the likelyhood is that the dealer you bought it off hasn't done the sump drop at the first service anyway, even though it's specified in the service schedule. (They may well of done but a lot of dealers don't because they aren't really interested in Guzzi.) Once the sump is off you can check the mounting bolts and see if anything is loose thatmight cause a pressure drop but my guess is it will be the crappy sender switch.
A quick test to see if you have *any* oil pressure at all is to take a rocker cover off and start the bike. If oil comes out of the area at the top of the rockers where the retaining springs are then chances are everything is fine, the delivery system is basically impregnable, (I've never seen a Guzzi oil pump fail. Wear out? Yes. Fail? No!) the pressure relief valve is so simple that unless a chunk of shite has jammed the plunger, (And all oil the the relief valve is filtered.) it can't really fail.
Try replacing the sender, check the above listed things and see what happens. you can't do any more harm than you have already if there really *is* a problem.
Pete
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Oh for f@cks sake!!! Look youse blokes, if a rear main seal goes it's like the bloody Exon Valdez, pints of oil everywhere in minutes!!!! I can't believe that even if your local dealer is a complete cretin that he doesn't know that Guzzi rear main seals very, very rarely blow unless the sump is grossly overfilled. In fact it is one of the few things that the *modern* motors do even less than the old ones!!!!!
While it may disapoint some of of our more naieve posters the basic Guzzi donk is exactly the same in all real respects as the venerable V700 of 1967 and oil leaks cone from the same places!
1.) Almost always leaks from the bell housing can be traced back to the breather hose that comes off the pipe from the top of the bell housing. Guzzi, for expediency clamp this with a shitty clamp like the sort of thing that they use for ringing birds! they also use really crap hose that tends to perish quickly and crack. When the clamp loosens or the hose cracks or collapses the hose leaks, it then runs down through the hole the pipe pokes through, through the bell housing and dribbles out of the drain slot and people who should know better say, "Uh! You've got a blown rear mainseal mate! That'll cost you a zillion dollars to fix!". If you're lucky while they are pulling the old tart apart they'll notice the pipe is a bit ordianary and replace it and then the leak will be fixed. If not then the leak will recurr within a few days, you'll get the sh!ts, the dealer will get the sh!ts with you, you'll sell the bike and then spend the rest of your life saying Guzzis are awful sh!theaps. Simply replace the hose first, make sure the ball valve is there and not gummed up and use decent clamps to secure it.
2.) If that doesn't work there are a couple of other areas prone to leakage. a.) The cam end welch plug. Solution? Clean it with carb cleaner and slather it in epoxy. b.) The two bottom bolts of the rear main bearing housing aren't in blind holes. They should be sealed with Loctite and, if you're paranoid, (Who? Me?) PTFE tape. Finally you may be unlucky enough to have a porous rear main bearing flange but this is stupidly rare!
3.) Sniff the oil. If it is gear oil chances are it's creeping up the clutch thrust pushrod because the seals have hardened. Offhand I can't say if the V11's use the same seals (But I'd bet London to a Brick they do!) as the older 5 speeds but these are notoriously leak prone, (Funnily enough mine never leak, I don't know why? I'm not a magician?).Replace them? Problem goes away!
Look, obviously I can't say definitively that you haven't got a blown rear main seal but if it were my bike I'd certainl;y replace the breather hose and, if suspected, the clutch pushrod seals, before pulling the motor out. No, I'm not trying to be smart but I've been working on these things for twenty five years and the only blown mainseals I've seen are on bikes that have sat idle for a few years or have been grossly overfilled with oil. Oh and the odd one that had been owned by the sort of moron who's idea of preventative maintenance is to bounce up and down on the seat and as long as the rims don't rub on the road? Well, it's fit to go!!!!
Always think *easy*! It's a Moto Guzzi for God's sakes!!!!! Put petrol in it and ride it till it stops!!!!!
Pete
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Antonio, you stiffhead,
Stiffhead? Nice
Look, I'm a carburetor sort of bloke as you're probably aware. I like 'em, even a mouth breather like me can make 'em work. What i can say is that I've ridden Cliff's Sport Corsa with his earlier itteration of his 'pooter that was built to replace the excrable 16M.
All I can say is that it's awesome, jaw-droppingly, wonderfull! OK so it's Cliff's own bike and he's spent a lot of time setting it up but it's power delivery is flawless, (OK, he was still pissing and moaning about it but I thought it was flawless!) right from idle to WAY too bloody fast!!! No, hiccups, flat spots, etc. Just twist the handle and watch the horizon come towards you at an indecently rapid rate of knots!!!!!
Cliff can explain it all, as I said, I'm a bonehead when it comes to FI. The thing is it's a complete replacement ECU and it can now be run closed loop if required. Compared to the other options, flashloaded programs from AM suppliers, (Haven't found one I like for the 15M yet.) or a PC III, which I know work and people are happy with but I don't like the idea of stacking a box on another box, if you see what I mean, Cliff's unit is streets ahead.
Yes, he's a small operator a long way away, but all the folks I've spoken to who have bought and used his product are very impressed with the level of after sales service he provides and are more than happy with the product.
You know where to send the xheque Cliff
Pete
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The grease pot at Mandello has an almost mythical status, a bit like the Unicorn
.Not only does that bearing rarely have any grease in it it also has a nice little hole to allow water in through the inner bearing race
I dunno if my little schpiel on stripping a bevelbox is still available on this site? If it is the pics there show you the various bits and pieces.
Incidentally, if it *is* stored somewhere could somebody e-mail it back to me or to the Guzzitech site as I think it's probably worth keeping even though most people are a bit confused by the chicken.
pete
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What makes this so enraging is that there ARE good dealers out there, but if your dealer is a complete dipshit, and there are lots of those around, it means you can't get ANY information at all.
This is insane
Pete
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I'd love to be able to give suggestions as to what to fit. Unfortunately I can't. I have very little to do with the newer bikes, not because I don't want to, simply because there aren't very many around here. NSW has always been a Guzzi wasteland and while the official dealers don't grease splines, *forget* to reinstall the clamp bolts for the oil galleries on Calis, refuse to admit that safety recalls exist and then claim to of performed the work while not having done so and seem unwilling to do, or supply for, warranty claims I'd say there is very little chance of there being many more of them around
If I don't get to look at them I can't either try and find sources of the *Good S#it* or try to fathom out why bits are going tits-up in the first place.If you look at my *profile* you'll see I own 'Lots of old shite', the reason for this is because it does everything I want so I'm not in the market for a *new* Guzzi, or any other brand for that matter. I'm very interested in, and want the company to do well and have many happy customers and I'll always try and give help and suggestions where I can. I won't though try and give advice on stuff I know very little or nothing about. The likes of Paul are going to be far more helpful to you here than I am, sorry.
Pete
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The Tonti frame single plate clutch failures are all down to the friction material disitegrating rather than the flywheel itself. I've just heard of the first Scura clutch I've heard of disintegrating in Oz on a bloke down in Melbourne's bike. Yucky!
Anyway, the earlier pic posted is of one of the aftermarket alluminium flywheels of the *conventional* design which are an alternative to the RAM unit for people with the older style clutch who want to shed some weight from the flywheel assembley. To be honest I have no qualms about recommending thes to people as I've not had one fail, and I've installed a good few of them. Notice that it also comes with a different thrust cup, this is because the actual *Back* of the wheel is thicker where it bolts to the crank so the whole clutch is moved towards the gearbox. The thrust cup has been machined to compensate so the pushrod doesn't come back too far to be adjusted properly on the arm at the back of the box.
I know this isn't strictly relevant to this thread but it is probably usefull in clearing up misunderstandings over what is what.
I know that many people swear by the RAM clutches, I've installed a few and I always think that the way they carry their weight right out away from the axis of rotation must negate some of the benefits they claim. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are a bad product at all, simply that as a one-eyed traditionalist I can't see anything really wrong with the earlier system. Having said that I do know that Guzzi had to do something about improving the clamping force of the clutches on the V11 series as the old design was begining to show signs of having reached it's limits of endurance, even in it's final 10 spring itteration as used on the Centauro, 100 Sport and Daytonas.
I think if I owned a Scura I'd be replacing the stock unit as a precaution. It's important to remember that none of the alluminium wheels are designed to use any sort of friction washer between the bolt heads and the wheel itself. Flat washers should be used to spread the load but using schnoores tends to damage the alloy resulting in stress raisers being started. On all the alloy wheels I've installed I use 1.0 bolts with flat washers and some loctite 243 to keep 'em still. Remember, it isn't the bolts that drive the flywheel, it's friction between the back of the wheel and the end of the crank, all the bolts do is give the clamping force. If they are loose they will not only damahe the wheel as it rattles around but they will shear in very short order if large loads are applied. HT bolts are designed to work in TENSION, (oddly enough
) not in shear. They don't like that at all!!!!Pete
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So this clutch 'malfunctioned' simply from high speed operation, not from power shifting or such?
What a #^*@ing joke! The engineers at Moto Guzzi should be ashamed with themselves. Imagine giving the green light to producing this clearly inadequete device, my head is shaking!
Ciao, Steve G.
Hmmm, this seems to be yet another example of the cretinism exhibited by the engineers during the Aprilia years. For others see the clutch wear problems on sigle plate Calis and the hydrauilic lifter fiasco which should NEVER, EVER of happened.
The tale is that Mr. Aprilia, (Wossisname???) sacked the whole sorry bunch of 'em after this series of disasters but who can tell?
I've always been of the opinion that guzzi engineering is bloody good. What has in the past let the side down is the bean-counters trying to save $20 on a bike and buying inferior crap from outside suppliers. I sincerely hope that this is still the case and the engineering is sound but I have my doubts.
Put it this way, If and when i get a V11 the first thing I'll do is strip it to the last nut and bolt and go through it with a fine-tooth comb. I'll crack test everything and since i've always fancied a scurra the clutch would be junked and I'd make something I could trust . I'm sure i could find something reliable of some shitbox Toyota I could adapt
Pete
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Sorry, no they won't. The 1100's have a larger crankpin for starters. If they are nice and cheap though you can buy them and sell 'em to me
How much is your *mate* asking???Pete
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The flickering oil light is the bikes way of telling you it's destroying it's big ends. If you have a look at the blurb I wrote about windage trays you'll see why.
As for the twin plugging how did you modify the advance curve to suit?
Pete
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When the V11's start turning up crashed, burnt, broken or otherwise munted by mouthbreathers I'll pick one up, prefferably an early short spine model. Then I'll put thinner tyres on it bugger around with one of Cliff's computers and try hot-rodding it.
Then I'll get bored and find an old Centaro motor and I'll start making Paul's life insufferable by nagging and whining at him until he sells me all the shit I need to build a copy of his six speed Daytona. Then I'll either get caught going way to fast and be sent to gaol with the Judge describing me as a 'Senile delinquent' or I'll crash it and spend the rest of my life sucking pap through a tube in an intensive care facility!
Honestly, I really like the V11's but I honestly don't need one and can't see a time in the immediate future when I will. If I get the opportunity I love messing about with them but they are still few and far between here in NSW. I'll gladly try and help owner of them if I can but own one?????
Pete
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Had a visit today from a new Ballabio owner. we went over his bike and finished off the Pre-Delivery which hadn't been done by the vending shop
. Anyway, among other things the sump wasn't removed at the 1st service so come 5,000kms he's bringing it back and we'll pull it off, along with the spacer. I'll have a squizz at Jason's pics and do some preliminary planning but having a 'Broad Sump' engine in I can pull the bottom off should make it much easier to organize straightof the bat without faffing around and modifying things several times.
I informed him about this site, he should hook up soon, he's looking for advice on different screens/ fairings for the Ballabio as he hates the standard one.
Pete
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Thanks mate, I've got to go to Melbourne today to shovel a couple of old Tonti shitheaps into my trailer to drag 'em back up here for work so i won't get a chance tio have a look until tomorrow night. After that I'll print out copies of what I need and you can whip 'em down if yuou like. I'll give you a hoy when I'm done.
Many thanks.
Pete
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Look, has anyone had or are they going to be, taking the sump off their bikes soon? If so could they also be persuaded to remove the intermediate spacer and take some photo's and send 'em to me?
I'm pretty sure that designing a windage tray for the V11's will be fairly simple but I'm loath to do one on spec. The shop I use for lazer-cutting the plates I make for earlier models can easily produce them for me, the *basic* design will be very similar to the early ones but I need to know if there is anything that sticks up or down through the plane of the bottom of the crankcase. If not I can probably get a prototype cut for Enzo next week.
Pete
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OK, here y'go;
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Firstly it is important to realize that what goes on inside your engine is happening FAST. When the engine is spinning at 6000RPM the crank is whizzing round 100 times a second, the pistons are flashing up and down at the same rate and the valves are opening and closing at only half that speed. If you want to have a look at it so you can get some idea it is perfectly OK to take the rocker cover off your engine when it's warm and start it briefly, give the throttle a twist and see what the valvegear is doing. It'll spray a bit of oil out but you only need to do it for a second or two and it is quite impressive to see how fast everything is happening!
Now imagine what is happening inside the crankcase! Top engine shops have the test beds to run motors with the sump off. Oil is fed to the pump and then plumbed to the main delivery galleries and the engine can be run and the internals exposed and *frozen* with a strobe to examine the way oil is thrown off the crank and other parts of the motor. If one does this it is quite impressive to see. The crank looks like a whopping great 'Dough Hook' like you see at industrial type bakeries with great streamers of oil being thrown off and being dragged around by the crank. Now imagine what it must be like with the sump on and the oil level quite close to the crank.
The crank, any crank, is a big, irregularly shaped, piece of steel. As it spins the webs will create a big low pressure area behind themselves as they spin. Nature abhors a vacuum so the air/gas, and anything else suspended in it or close to it will try to rush into the low pressure area and try to fill it. Also, as the crank spins it will spin everything else in there too, air, oil vapor and droplets and the oil that the hurricane forces it creates will pick up from the surface of the oil in the sump.
This will have several effects. Obviously as the leading edge of the crank spins through this cloud of muck it is going to use energy pushing it out of the way and/or accelerating it up to crank speed. Likewise the low pressure area behind the trailing webs is going to be trying to slow the crank down, (Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, yes?) so it is in the interests of maximising power to make the air inside the case as thin as possible so less energy is used in this way. After all, any energy not used for this can be used to make the crank and therefore the wheels go round faster.
Secondly there is the matter of heat. Air is a really good insulator. While the oil is being whipped up into the air inside the case in droplet form or is bouncing about after being thrown off the crank it can only dump heat really by radiation. If, on the other hand it is more effectively de-aerated and returned quickly to the sump it can dump heat by conduction to the walls of the sump and thence radiate it away far more rapidly and efficiently. This gives the oil an easier time and helps ensure that parts that are cooled and lubricated by it are better protected.
Thirdly, there is the matter of crankcase pressurisation. Above the pistons, during the power stroke, there is a shirtload of pressure! Tens of atmospheres of pressure! While the piston rings do a pretty good job, especially with Nicasil bores, of keeping this pressure above the piston so it can be forced down the bore there is always going to be a bit of leakage. When this is happening 50 times a second even this little bit of leakage is going to ensure that the pressure inside the crankcase is always going to be higher than the pressure outside the crankcase which is atmospheric-ambient. There is also the pumping action of the pistons and leakage past the exhaust valve which add to the pressure to a greater or lesser extent during the cycle of the engine but effectively the pressure inside the case is always positive and this has to be relieved by being vented, eventually to atmosphere or in the case of most motors into the airbox. Why into the airbox? Because as the gas is vented from the crankcase it will carry oil as vapor and droplets which is then attempted to be separated by some system, either a collector box or in the case of the later bikes by using the frame as a plenum chamber in which it can condense out and be returned to the motor but a small amount of vapor will remain in suspension and by re-breathing it through the airbox and thence the combustion process it keeps the eco-fascists happy. The issue is how much oil is vented out with the excess pressure. The more oil there is in suspension in the air the harder it is for the condensing and return system to cope so it is in the interests of better oiling and return to minimise this.
OK, so what is a windage tray and what is it’s function in a Guzzi motor?
Essentially the plates I use are simply that. A plate that separates the main part of the crankcase where all the action is from the sump where the oil is. In very high performance applications windage trays may have scrapers that actually drag oil off the crank webs as they spin, usually in the form of knife-edge weirs that run within a few thou of the webs, and fine mesh screens within the case to strain out oil droplets and encourage them to return quickly to the sump. These will be in addition to the plate itself that sits just above the level of the oil.
The plates I built were an adaptation of the plate we bought for the racer. This was made of very thin, (1mm.) aluminium and in that format it was very prone to stress fractures. For road applications this wasn’t a particularly smart idea so I got them cut from 2mm stainless. Heavy as death, but they aren’t gunna fracture!
Obviously there have to be holes in the plate to allow the oil to drain back to the sump. On the first run of plates I did there was an orifice in the plate above where the oil filter sits and the pressure relief valve, along with a pattern of holes away from the crank in such a position that the windage from the crank would push oil that had drained from the walls of the case of been thrown and settled on the plate would be pushed towards them. To be honest I think it can be done better, especially if there is no oil filter in the sump with the potential to foul the plate. While the oil level will only just come to the top of the filter, which with the early filters sits just below the level of the plate, it does mean that there is this expansive hole in the plate that the crank can still pick up oil from. For models with an ‘Outsider’ type oil filter I see no reason to have this hole and would think that probably the better design would be to have a plate with no large hole but a series of slots around the edge and a thinner slot in the middle and it is this that I’m going to prototype and install on my SP or Convert as a testbed when I have the time, money and opportunity!
The whole purpose is to encourage the oil out of suspension in the air within the crankcase. Yes, it’s flung off the crank at a fair old pace and will tnd to bounce and splatter off the crankcase walls and the plate itself, but at least it won’t be splashing straight into the oil in the sump and aerating it and throwing still more of it into the air in the case. Once it has hit the walls or the plate surface tension will encourage it to stay there and simply drain back to the sump. I know this works because the problem with the racer pumping out quantities of oil when pressed hard was completely eradicated once we had a plate fitted!
Allowing the oil to drain onto the plate and thence through holes in it into the sump also helps ensure that the oil in the sump is less aerated. This is a good thing as you really don’t want your oil pump trying to pump an oily foam! Not only is oily foam not a particularly good lubricant or coolant it is also a damn sight harder for the pump to pump it efficiently. Ensuring good separation and de-aeration pays other dividends as well, as previously mentioned it enables the oil to cool easier by conduction.
Another benefit which will be of particular interest to owners of ‘Broad Sump’, post Sport Corsa, Centauro models is that the plate will also act as a baffle under hard acceleration. It has been found, certainly with hard-used V11’s, that under hard acceleration or wheelieing it is sometimes noticeable that the oil pressure warning light will flicker. Believe me, this is BAD S#IT. The switch operates at some ridiculously low pressure and for it to come on there has to have been bugger all oil going through the pump for a while, (By ‘a while’ I’m talking in terms of very short periods of time but remember, everything is happening ‘very’ fast in there!) and if the switch has time to close after pressure has been lost then the mains and big ends will have been in a boundary lubrication situation for a good many revolutions! I don’t care how many people tell me “Oh, my V11 does that quite often and it hasn’t done it any harm.” Believe me, it’s doing it harm. It may not kill it at once but it will be the ‘Death of a thousand cuts’ only it won’t take thousands of occurrences, probably only singles or at most tens of them. The most likely cause of this is the fact that the ‘Broad Sump’ bikes have the oil pick-up at the front of the crankcase/sump. When the machine is accelerated hard or wheelied the oil will surge towards the back of the sump, away from the pick-up. If this is extreme enough then the pickup will be exposed. Exposed pick-up = no oil to pump. No oil to pump = no oil to bearings. No oil to bearings = ‘Dogga-Dogga’ noise! So I think it would be fair to say that there are obvious advantages to fitting some sort of windage tray to the ‘Broad Sump’ models, if only to help prevent this starvation problem. Now though, lets look at some of the issues with building a plate for this application.
Firstly let me say that I’m NOT that familiar with the internals of the new design. I’ve only had one broad sump off and that was on a Sport Corsa many moons ago so all I’ve got to go on are the pics in my V11 manual, usually because the filter can be changed without removing the sump via the stupid, hard to remove plate, the sump doesn’t need to come off after the first oil change. (And I’ll bet most dealers don’t even remove it them, even though the service specs call for it!). However the crankcase is essentially the same as earlier models but it has a bolted on flange beneath it, screwed on internally rather than externally, and it is to this that both the sump and the plumbing for the oil cooler thermostat and the oil filter mount are bolted. Beneath this is the sump plate itself which is attatched by external screws. I guess, but I’m not sure that the reason the Broad sump was designed was that it has a lower profile than the earlier sumps and this allows the motor to be dropped a bit, lowering the machine’s centre of mass. I DON’T know if the capacity of the sump is still the same but I’d guess it probably is, (give or take a few cc’s!) given that it is wider but shallower. The location of the filter and plumbing and where the pressure relief valve, (Built into the thermostat/filter mount.) protrudes woill be the governing factors on the design of the plate. The plate itself will still sit, as do the plates for earlier bikes, immediately under the crankcase and above the flange/spacer. Holes will have to be made for a.) anything else that protrudes above the base line of the crankcase from the sump/flange area and b.) to allow oil to return to the sump. It is important tor remember that the oil level must sit just below the plate otherwise it is purposeless as oil above it will still be able to be picked up and flung around by windage.
If the Moto Special sump is used the whole oil cooler/thermostat and flange will be discarded (but an earlier type oil pressure relief valve has to be fitted to that sump, don’t forget.) but the plate design will be dead simple as all it needs is holes or slots cutting in it to allow for oil return. While the starvation problems associated with the ‘Broad Sump’ will be reduced, if not eradicated, by the MS sump the other benefits of reduced frictional losses, (Probably very small.) better cooling and the prevention of windage and surge will still be applicable. I know that Paul has a deep sump on his six speed Daytona but I’m not sure whether or not there might be ground clearance problems on a V11 due to the greater depth of the MS sump. Best idea would be to see if anyone at V11.Com already has one of these sumps and then if they have no problems start on designing a plate.
I’ve probably missed a whole load of stuff but I hope that is helpful and informative.
Pete.
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Al, Jaap, Docc? I've just written a bit of a blurb about the benefits or otherwise of some form of windage tray, especially as I see it in the V11's, and posted t up on the WG site in response to a request from Enzo. Would you like me to transcribe it here? or do you want to? It might be of interest to some folks.
Pete
Not just any old oil leak 
Aonther Scura clutch broken
in Technical Topics
Posted
Well, Bruce's clutch and flywheel arrived yesterday and I just got a chance to pull 'em out and have a look. To be honest I think the issue is that the alloy basket is simply too bloody thin! Compared to one of the anodised Alloy wheels that are available for the (Less powerful.) earlier models the thickness of the RAM/Guzzi part is a lot less. The last *real* RAM unit I installed was on an 1100 Sport C and from memory the whole unit looked substantially different and I certainly don't remember the back of the wheel being quite so skinny?
Do you want me to take some pics so someone can post 'em up here????
Pete