al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 As reported briefly in another thread, I went and had my PCIII custom map made at Hare Racing, in Sunnyvale, CA today. First let me say that these were some very nice folks, and went out of their way to tinker with the map several times to try to address the ongoing idlling/coughing problem the bike has. That being said, after having the map made, peak HP was 82.4, and torque was 64.4. Unfortunately I do not have a comparison dyno for the bike as stock, versus the modifications currently installed. But I would have to guess that I've gained a handful of HP based on "seat of the pants" dyno, and past results I've seen from other stock bikes that had HP results in the mid/hi 70's. Peak torque seems about the same though. Although HP and torque weren't statospherically increased(and BTW I asked them to balance efficiency with power, leaning toward efficiency) it was "up" across the board as opposed to just peaks, and the curves for both were much smoother. While I still have a dip around 4-5k RPM, it is reduced, and the oddball dip in torque from 6.5-7.5k RPM was eliminated. Current setup: - Mike Rich "Stage II" Ported Heads - Dual Plugged Heads (but not yet "working", so moot at this point) - Increased Compression 1/4 point - Hardened/Coated Valves(same size, should have no effect on power) - K&N Pods - Stucci X-over - Leo Vince Exhaust ...and the PCIII of course Now if I can just figure out why it won't idle reliably worth a damn once warmed up. Sheesh... it'll idle fine, then... "COUGH"... stumble... maybe die... Then it'll idle for a while just fine. Then "COUGH". It used to do this out of the right TB, then the dealer more-or-less calmed it down(the coughing, it still died at redlights a lot), and now is coughing out of the left TB. I dunno. I'm going to recheck the TB balance this weekend, and hopefully that'll help. I'll probably run some "injector cleaner" through a tank too. Why not This idle thing is really bugging me though. It's the only real problem I've got with the bike If balancing the TBs doesn't get it, I guess my last hope is to go to the Raceco valves settings as Mike suggested. It's not a big deal to get done, but I just haven't taken the time. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 ...much smoother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Kelland Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Al, I am considering a stucchi xover for my le mans as I believed that it would remove the torque dip between 4 and 5k. It looks like it is still there on yours but it also looks like it occurs a couple of hundred rpm lower than on mine. I know you said it's improved but do you think that the dip moved down in rpm's as well? I am really curious about this. Good luck on your idle problem, so far this hasn't been an issue with mine since I put a couple of thousand miles on it, It did happen occasionally when it was new. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 If you compare the dip to that of a stock bike you will see that on the stock bike it is MUCH more pronounced. So the Stucchi is doing its job. On this graph, stock is in red: http://www.scripps.edu/~dlaing/v11s/DL_V11...s-StockV11S.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 It's hard for me to tell how well the Stucci, etc... diminished the infamous 4-5k RPM torque "dip"... as I never took the opportunity to dyno the bike completely stock, although I wish I had. That being said, the "butt dyno" after installing the pods, x-over, and exhaust... even before the custom map... exhibited a pretty obvious improvement. But as a comparson, John's "suped up" Rosso with the additional benefits of a new cam, valve-springs, and balancing... still exhibits the same dip in the ~4-5k RPM range, although his output is increased across the board as well. Hot Rod Rosso Thread So I can only assume that barring some new discovery by some tuner, the 4-5k dip is somewhat endemic to this engine design and it's fueling system. It looks like it can be diminished and smoothed out, but will always be somewhat present. I don't know why though. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichMaund Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Geez Al I'm not trying to rain on you as you have spent a great deal of time & money on the bike. But your Dyno graphs look very similar to what bike achieved with just a set of pipes, a PCIII and general map for the equipment! You have me beat by 2 hp, about the same on torque. very close on the power delivery in the curves on the graph. But mine has no driveability issues anymore. 33 mpg city, 41 mpg hiway. I have to wonder if 90% of your money & time went into the last 10% of the performance gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I have to wonder if 90% of your money & time went into the last 10% of the performance gain? Well, there's certainly a law of diminishing returns in engine tuning. Another of my hobbies is building my own stereo equipement (tubes- valves for you Euro-types- of course). Talk about an amazing amount of money for an unmeasurable return. Some of the capacitors and resistors are outrageously priced, and I can't tell the difference between them and a radio shack special sometimes. To be fair- Al hasn't really done a whole lot to his bike. 0.25 in compression? That isn't too dramatic, I would guess. Is the porting where it's coming from? I don't know, but I am curious. Or does the porting do more for efficiency (yes, I know they're related) or smoothness of power delivery? I'm curious, cause it's something I'm tossing around in my head. As far as the spitting and popping and whatnot, I wonder if this correllates with temperature? I notice my bike backfires on an infrequent basis, but only when it's hot out (ambient temp> 90F, 32C). You want to gather some info? Set a poll maybe? Cheers, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest callithrix Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I just got my bike mapped this morning at Hare Racing . I told them I wanted midreange and torque.The results were 77.8 HP and 64.6 ft-lbs torque. The Hp curve is nice and linear but the torque has an obvious dip in 4-5K RPM range. Overall bike runs much better and finally the dreaded idle stumble is gone!!!! I have noticed a slight surging and hesitation at 2200rpm in 2nd and 3rd gear. SET UP K&N filter, no cover Stucchi X-over Ferracci pipes PCIII Valves at Raceco settings 2002 v11 Lemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Hrmm, I guess I'm going to have to get the valves set to Raceco specs.... that seems to be the last variable to address the idle stumble. Mike, you wanna come over and walk me through the prodedure BTW, how many miles do you have on your LeMans Callithrix? Mine is still very low since it sat in the shop for 5 months... at ~3000. I just called a tech at Moto International, and although he confirmed that the idle stumble is endemic to all low-mileage V11 Sport/LeMans(and said Guzzi really should do something about it) he also said that the problem mysteriously seems to disappear at 6-8k miles for just about everyone. This is the same advice my dealer here has given, so I guess I just have to go "rack up some miles". It's funny though, this idle problem only started after the first service... *sigh* Oh, and yes in regard to the power output... I'm sure it is something of a battle of diminishing returns for many of these modifications, but also keep in mind that some of them(such as the pods) were for my own pure vanity . I suspect a couple things though... 1) The engine is still tight. I bet if I dyno this thing once it loosens up at 10k or so, there'll be some more power(everything else being equal). 2) It's still not running optimally. It just isn't. With that understood, I might be able to get a tiny bit more out of it. 3) ..dual-plugging?? ....a difference?? We'll see. Still a hurdle on the timing advance issue. ...and finally, if one ignores the "coughing" and stumbling at idle... the bike definitely runs and pulls better now. And it SOUNDS much better That intake "suck" and exhaust boom are quite eeeeeempressive Well, off to "rack some miles up"... hopefully with no drama from the idle issue, other than some inconvenience. OH, and I also had Mike Stewarts "no start" issue twice yesterday. Odd that it's never happened before, so I bet I've got a loose connector under the tank since I moved everything around so much over the last week tinkering. I think this is minor.. just need to clean and reconnect the various connectors on the harness I bet. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toutizes Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Al and Callithrix, would you mind posting your maps? It might serve as a good base for others with similar set ups... I think that the Power Commander site has a place where you can contribute maps. If it's too much trouble and you want to send them by e-mail maybe Jaap might want to host them? I know the maps are different for each, but it would be interesting to see how they differ on all these bikes. (You can easily download the map to a laptop with the PC software) Thanks Matthieu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 No problem, I'll email mine to Jaap to post in the files section. I've also sent it to Todd Eagan at Guzzitech al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toutizes Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Way cool, here is a map mod I made to the 701-001.map from Dynojet to help with the stumble at 2-3k rpm http://www.toutizes.com/Maps Matthieu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Thanks Matthieu, The fella at Hare tried the same, although I'll have to double-check to see where he modified the values. I think I'm going to get the valves adjusted to the Raceco specs first and see what happens, then if it's still acting up take it back down to Hare and/or do as you have done. ...keeping my fingers crossed that the valve adjustment will help a good bit, as this is the only real problem I've got with the bike. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest callithrix Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Hi Al it's callithrix, My bike was purchased used and totally stock. It curently has 5200 miles of which 600 are mine. I've owned the bike for 4 months. In response to posting my map I will as soon as I get copy from Hareracing. Rode the bike 200miles today what a blast!! Those Ferracci pipes are loud but unoffensive, Sweet sound. I've also suspect that the engine may need a little more breaking in, time will tell. As a side note waiting while you listen to your get bike dynoed in closed-off room can be a rather tense experience. You start to imagine all kinds of parts flying off and potential catastrophes as you hearthose revs climb. SCARY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I think when they dyno'd my engine it was equivalent to 3000 break in miles! Kind of unnerving when they run it past 8000 + RPMS wearing ear protection. If it did not drop a valve now, it probably never will. Keep in mind that all dynos are not alike, and that the fact that you guys both got less than I think we all would have predicted seems to indicate that you may have gotten more INDICATED power on some of the other dynos that people are reporting from. Callithrix got only one more HP than a stock bike in Las Vegas. So either they are not equally calibrated or the weather in Vegas is more conducive to high output numbers, (or both). If I compare my bike to the one in Vegas, I lost about 6 peak HP(and gained about 6HP at 4500rpm). It is possible that I lost that much or even more, but more likely only a loss of maybe 3 or 4HP, or so I will let myself believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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