quazi-moto Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 It appears that all I've read about oil filters backing off is always in reference to the UFI oil filter. When I did my most recent oil change I used a UFI because I had a few already on hand in the garage. After reading all the horror stories I'm beginning to wish that I had used a different brand of filter. I dropped the sump when I did the oil change and removing the old filter (dealer installed UFI) took some leverage with the filter wrench. I installed the new one after filling it with oil and oiling the gasket. I tightened it the best I could by hand and no more. Should I just keep an eye on the oil pressure idiot light or what? Amsoil 20w50 synthetic ain't exactly cheap so I don't feel like dumping it right away if I can avoid it. In the future I'll probably run the K&N HP-1002 filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Quazi, your concern may be well founded, and IMHO our recent Forum excursion may have the benefit of saving a few motors. But "paranoia"?? Leave us not get ourselves wrapped around the driveshaft here! At least more attention to this, if not concern, might be a good thing. Either one will certainly have the benefit of changing the behavior of some who do their own filter changes (including Yours Truly). It might possibly even change the behavior of some who have "the dealer" do it, trusting as they would be obliged to do in this case, that whomever does wotever to their Guzzi behind closed doors is "safe enough" to rely upon. How much trust do you have in your hand tightening technique? Wot does "the best I could by hand and no more" mean? Can you qualify it? Alternately, how much trust do others have in their dealer/service provider WRT oil filter installation? Can they qualify that?? To my knowledge, there have been NO reported cases of any Guzzi oil filters other than the UFI that failed by backing off. Does this mean that the UFI filter necessarily has a "retention problem"? Not anything close to necessarily, IMHO!! Wot if it turns out that only a very tiny percentage of the Guzzi riding population uses anything other than UFI? Wot if it turns out that a large percentage of Guzzi riders ignore filter changes, taking the factory/dealer-issue UFI far past it's scheduled replacement? In these cases, an inherent retention problem of the UFI wouldn't be implicated. Statistically speaking, a percentage of any kind of filter may be expected to fail due to improper installation. Taken past replacement intervals, gaskets compress and harden, which can increase the liklihood of retention problems. Fact is, no one will ever likley have any credible statistics on any of this, so to deduce anything from arbitrary numbers of users of any mfgr. filter OR improper installations or service would be nothing but conjecture, and not helpful to consider. IT PROBABLY BEARS REPEATING: NO ONE HERE HAS IDENTIFIED ANY EVIDENCE OR PROOF OF AN "INHERENT" UFI FILTER RETENTION "PROBLEM"! Please note that Ryland neither presented, nor claimed to have found either any evidence nor any proof that one filter has any better retention than any other! His analysis was limited to evaluating sealing design characteristics of a few filters. Actual sealing ability of filters against oil pressure was neither measured nor compared. Neither is sealing ability against oil pressure the same as retention, or resistance to back off! Some filters appeared to him to have a better sealing design than others, by legitimate engineering criteria. In order to have found evidence that one filter has superior retention over another, one must have credibly tested and measured actual retention -- again, that is resistance to back off -- and then compared actual retention measurements. This was not within the scope of Ryland's analysis, nor did he claim it was, nor did he represent his analysis as having done so. Further, in order to have provided proof of inadequate retention, he would have had to provide statistically significant numbers of measureable, repeatable failures of retention with data from a credible retention testing procedure. To my knowledge, there are no known studies beyond general oil filter tests where mfgr. tightening procedures are followed and a number of failures (of various kinds, including seal failure) have been reported. To my knowledge (Part II) no comparative oil filter testing has been done with a specific focus on filters backing off due to poor retention, which is a distinct and separate cause of failure apart from seal failure not due to lack of retention. Again, I'm fairly certain that Ryland would agree with these statements. If he's interested, perhaps he'll comment. FWIW, Ryland's study of oil fliter gaskets has got me to change my behavior. From now on, I'm using the TURNS method. Nope, I'm not concerned about the quality of tightening job I did last time, and I'm not doing an oil and filter change before it's due. I'm also not using a hose clamp, not stacking change on the manhole cover in the sump with silicone seal, not using a welded-on tab for safety wire, nor do I have plans to start any o' these precautions. But of course, that's just me, and to each his own. Have a happy Easter ride, my friend. When you start up, and whenever you think about it, take a gander at the oil pressure light. If it's off, y'er motor's more'n likely as safe as it's ever been before from fatally low oil pressure. IMHO, no need for extraordinary fears of the Low Oil Pressure Grim Reaper! But whilst out riding, best keep an eye out f'er the freakin' Easter Rabbit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 In the future I'll probably run the K&N HP-1002 filter. Rest easy, the odds of it unscrewing are low, especially if you tightened it with about the same force you used to take off the old filter. According to independent research published on the internet, the K&N filters get a mediocre rating for quality of build. For the most part you'd probably be paying $3 for the filter and $9 for them to weld a safety wire nut on to it. If you can find a decent place to wire the nut to the engine, it might be a good choice, but I don't think there is a good place to wire it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 It appears that all I've read about oil filters backing off is always in reference to the UFI oil filter. When I did my most recent oil change I used a UFI because I had a few already on hand in the garage. After reading all the horror stories I'm beginning to wish that I had used a different brand of filter. I dropped the sump when I did the oil change and removing the old filter (dealer installed UFI) took some leverage with the filter wrench. I installed the new one after filling it with oil and oiling the gasket. I tightened it the best I could by hand and no more. Should I just keep an eye on the oil pressure idiot light or what? Amsoil 20w50 synthetic ain't exactly cheap so I don't feel like dumping it right away if I can avoid it. In the future I'll probably run the K&N HP-1002 filter. UFI likely gets the bad rap because it is most widely used. It is what the typical MG dealer sells. The average DIYer who goes to the dealer to get his filter usually walks out with a UFI, so it is the one that is on most V11s and if there is trouble for whatever reason odds are this brand is installed. I still stand by my original post on the matter of loose filters quite some time ago. - A filter that comes loose was likely always loose. - I just changed mine as reported in a prior thread, the UFI was, as was all the other UFIs I've used, still tight. Tighten it tight, relax and ride. Other bikes and cars for that matter with spin on filters that are not tight enough leak. When they leak they can loosen. The only difference is with an exposed filter, you'll notice the leak and tighten it. On the MG, you'll never know if it is leaking and the long term result is the monster that has been created here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigelstephens Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 "I tightened it the best I could by hand and no more." I totally agree too. Never had a problem and I always on purpose over tighten. If the directions state tighten to contact and then another 1 and half turns I totally ignore and just screw hard to what feels right. This is not vey helpful as it is subjective according to grip. However, my last filter (Champion) took 2 and half turns after first contact of seals. This is just in my experiance and with my hand grip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio carroccio Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Champion C305, go fot it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Never had a problem and I always on purpose over tighten. If the directions state tighten to contact and then another 1 and half turns I totally ignore and just screw hard to what feels right. This is not vey helpful as it is subjective according to grip. However, my last filter (Champion) took 2 and half turns after first contact of seals. This is just in my experiance and with my hand grip! I agree with the "on purpose over tighten" , with "over tighten" more than recommended by the filter maker, not till the gasket explodes or the threads strip, which is truly over tightened. If you can over-tighten with a mere grip on the filter, you must have forearms like Popeye As for those of us whose only exercise is a twist of the grip, a wrench is probably needed. I pay attention to the directions and turn atleast the recommended degrees, and torque it about as much as an 8mm threaded bolt (I'd guess 15-25 foot pounds, but I have not used a torque wrench in years) I base how far I torque it on a combination of what feels right and the number of degrees beyond recommended. Perhaps that is over thinking it, but with the known problem of experienced people swearing it was tight and then it loosens, I don't think you can over think it....and thus we have endless threads that turn friends into enemies Also, after I use up my two SuperTechs, I will then only buy Purolator, until evidence proves that I might be better off with something else. So far I have only heard people suggest either that it should be as tight as tight feels right, or some say you should just use the recommended turns and then some. Anybody else have ideas on how tight tight should be? 6mm thread torque tight?!? 8mm thread torque tight??? 10mm thread torque tight!?! Maybe we need a poll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quazi-moto Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Just to clarify what I posted, I basically used the same approach that I've always used on automotive filters which is the use of a wrench to remove the old filter and only hand tight for the new filter. I make a second attempt after thoroughly wiping the filter canister clean and my hand as well. I can usually turn it a tad more on the second attempt. With automotive filters this has always worked for me and I always have to rely on a wrench for removal. When I removed the dealer installed UFI I had to use a wrench, but I don't know if a wrench was used when it was installed by the dealer. Perhaps the term "paranoia" was a poor choice of words, but I am a little concerned about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Perhaps the term "paranoia" was a poor choice of words, but I am a little concerned about it. Maybe it is because I am paranoid, and maybe because my arms are somewhere between Olive Oil's or Wimpy's rather than like Popeye's or Bluto's, but I would eat my spinach, drain the precious Amsoil (you can reuse it if you are careful), and re-tighten the UFI. I think the tightening job you did is exactly what would hold fine on your car, and even on the Guzzi maybe only one in a hundred would fail to hold tight, but I would not want to be that one in a hundred or one in a thousand or whatever it is that hand tighten and then the engine gets serious damage. Before reading Greg Field's posts about filters that come loose, I would drop the pan and install the filter by putting the filter wrench cap on to give me a better grip and then tighten to about all I could muster with one hand, thinking all along that if I used a wrench to tighten, I might face a hell of a time removing the filter. After all, it always seems harder to remove than it did to tighten. I did not even notice that the filter had a recommended 3/4 turn. I too, have never lost a filter with that method, but I have never had a bike that vibrated this much, nor a bike with a screw on filter surrounded by so much heat and oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigelstephens Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 dlaing "have not used a torque wrench in years". Me too except for cylinder head. I didn't like to admit it but nice to find someone else out there who does it by feel and experiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 dlaing "have not used a torque wrench in years". Me too except for cylinder head. I didn't like to admit it but nice to find someone else out there who does it by feel and experiance. I also rarely use loctite But I use lots of antiseize I think alot of us on the forum rarely use a torque wrench. The feel of bolt stretch is usually a good indicator, but sometimes paying attention to the recommended spec, if you can find it, is a better idea. The cylinder head is good example of when to use a torque wrench.. I should buy a torque wrench just to refresh my memory of what 20 or 30 ft lbs feels like. I lost a few bolts durring the first 10,000 miles of my bike, all on bolts that retained plastic or the alternator cover, but now at thirty something thousand miles, all the bolts have been staying tight. Embarassingly, I did strip the 6mm threads on one of the legs of one of my Marzocchis. Those bolts are probably a good candidate for loctite rather than a heavy hand. The factory stripped my oil drain plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormsedge Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 UFIs...remove the pan so you can be sure of your grip on filter (sorry---NONE of the assorted filter wrenches I've purchased for this purpose seem to work well)...overtighten it by hand (end up using big channel locks to remove). Ride. Worked on my '79...still doing it on the '01. k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 dlaing "have not used a torque wrench in years". Me too except for cylinder head. I didn't like to admit it but nice to find someone else out there who does it by feel and experiance. I & the guys who work for me use torque wrenches on anything critical. Which is to say internal engine, differential and transmission. Other than that you develop a pretty good "feel" for how tight things should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polebridge Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Rest easy, the odds of it unscrewing are low, especially if you tightened it with about the same force you used to take off the old filter. According to independent research published on the internet, the K&N filters get a mediocre rating for quality of build. For the most part you'd probably be paying $3 for the filter and $9 for them to weld a safety wire nut on to it. If you can find a decent place to wire the nut to the engine, it might be a good choice, but I don't think there is a good place to wire it Is that correct? K&N mediocre? Crap, I have been using the HP-1002 on my truck for 5 years! If you have a link to the research I would appreciate it. Also, I did not know that the HP-1002 would work on my V11 Sport. Is that really correct? If so it would be nice to use the same filters on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quazi-moto Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 If I were to drop the sump again I would just install a different brand of filter rather than trying to make the UFI a little tighter. I could re-use the oil if I'm careful enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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