This IS NOT your 'pedestrian grade' OIL THREAD!

[Guest ratchethack]

From Hot Rod Magazine's TECHNICAL section:

 

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/...tappet_cam_tech

 

Now let the err, festivities begin. . .

[Greg Field]

This is not aimed at you, Ratch: "Well, duh"

 

If you are in the US, stick to SG-rated oils.

[dlaing]

Good heavens, at least three controversial topics in one post!

Way to go Ratchet!

 

ZDDP rocks! but I never bought the additive, because my $50/gallon lube should not need it, right?...this makes me re-think...again....

 

Rollers Rock! but I always thought it was too expensive of an upgrade. How much will it help? Is it a waste of money?

 

Sound the alarms!

What may actually be contributing to this perceived block problem is the way engines are currently built. As Comp's Scooter Brothers points out,"Most performance engines today use windage trays, limit oiling to the top of the engine, modify rod side-clearance for less splash oil, and use special oil pans. This has greatly reduced the oil film at the camshaft/lifter interface."

I am sure someone will have a good explanation as to why those with windage trays should not fear the alleged consequences.

[Greg Field]

I know of a ton of EV cam failures and three V11 Sport cam failures; none of these bike had a windage tray. These statisitics prove conclusively, leaving not a shadow of a doubt, that a Roper slopper can save your engine . . .

 

And stop buyuing the cheap stuff, Dave; good oil costs at least $90/gallon.

[Guest ratchethack]

I am sure someone will have a good explanation as to why those with windage trays should not fear the alleged consequences.

Well, I thought Pete did a pretty good job of repeatedly taking great efforts to explain that his plates are NOT windage trays at all. He was very careful to insist that they're merely 'sloppage trays'. The distinction being that modern windage trays have "knife edge" scrapers hydrodynamically designed within thousandths of an inch of the crank webs to slice off as much of the clinging mass of oil on and close to the crank as possible, with ducting to channel it under the tray. Pete's plate does nothing of the kind. It primarily serves to keep the oil close to the pickup. You still have a very significant mass of oil windage, and a mass of oil that would provide more than enough for the tappets -- just far less than in stock trim.

[dlaing]

just far less than in stock trim.

Tell me about it.

I have enough splashed lube making its way out of the breather that I hardly have to lube my air filter. And I guess my cams are getting plenty of lube as long I don't accelerate up hills

Thanks for the explanation.

[dlaing]

And stop buyuing the cheap stuff, Dave; good oil costs at least $90/gallon.

OK!

[mike wilson]

From Hot Rod Magazine's TECHNICAL section:

 

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/...tappet_cam_tech

 

Now let the err, festivities begin. . .

 

Interesting stuff. Some rather unusual conclusions drawn, though. Cams are failing so it is possible that the "cheap, imported" lifters are to blame? Surely the "cheap, imported" lifters would fail, not the cams? A spot of Harleyesque xenophobia there, methinks.

 

It's fairly obviously an oil flow problem - OHC bucketed-shim (shimmed bucket?) engines are basically the same configuration at the lobe/lifter interface and they do not seem to be failing. If it was the oil, they would be.

 

Moral - if you are going to try to extract more power out of an engine than the manufacturer intended, make _sure_ that oil is getting to where it needs to be.

[Greg Field]

Bad lifters that do not spin, imported or not imported, can most definitely cause the cam to fail. The lifter usually fails, too, but not always. I've seen substandard regrinds do the same thing.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . . I have enough splashed lube making its way out of the breather that I hardly have to lube my air filter. . .

Dave, per previous threads on this and prior explanations, there are several principles at work here. You've indicated that you used a gentle break-in technique. This has almost certainly resulted in glazed bores and rings that can never fully seat, as so well described in the *MOTOMAN* well-proven break-in method:

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

This means that your motor has, and will always have excessive blow-by -- that is, unless or until its cylinders are at least honed to break the glaze and probably new rings are fitted as well, and it's then broken-in properly.

 

Unless you've overfilled the sump, a properly broken-in motor will not get much, if any, oil in the airbox, unless it's routinely flogged at and over redline. The fact that you continue to get it on a regular basis is an indication that blow-by is in fact excessively pressurizing the crankcase. Blow-by pressure has to go somewhere if it can, and indeed it does have an easy escape route. It creates an excessive flow volume of oil-laden air that does not exist in properly broken-in motors that carries oil droplets and oil mist with it from windage out of the crankcase via the only avenue open to it -- the condensor, which is more or less always overwhelmed and pushed over-capacity when excessive blow-by exists, so out the oil goes, through the breather and into the airbox. This oil in the airbox is actually a good thing, because without a condensor and breather, the positive crankcase pressure would otherwise blow out the crank seals.

 

You can reduce windage by lowering the oil level in the sump, and you can reduce windage by installing a Roper plate. Either one of these will tend to reduce the amount of oil lost through the breather to some degree, but neither will prevent blow-by from pressurizing the crankcase in the slightest, so it will continue to carry oil from windage out with the excessive flow volume through the condensor and breather, and fill up your airbox with oil. Again, blow-by from rings that never seated correctly will never get better, it only gets worse.

[mike wilson]

Bad lifters that do not spin, imported or not imported, can most definitely cause the cam to fail. The lifter usually fails, too, but not always. I've seen substandard regrinds do the same thing.

 

Not spinning is a fault not always attributable to the lifter. For example, it could be that the lifter is cocking due to wear in the bore. On another page of the same site they have an instance of total engine failure due to bad fit.

 

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/...lure/index.html

 

They don't blame this on imported valve guides. Come to think of it, they don't attribute blame anywhere. 1/8th of an inch play in valve guides!!!

[Guest ratchethack]

A spot of Harleyesque xenophobia there, methinks.

They don't blame this on imported valve guides. Come to think of it, they don't attribute blame anywhere.

Hm. Could it be that they* might not actually be xenophobic after all?

 

*They: You know, the ones at Hot Rod Magazine -- others -- those who aren't us .

 

Hey Mike -- Let's say that we actually have a case where imported components actually ARE clearly and consistently inferior relative to domestic components -- whatever "domestic" means to anyone, regardless of country of origin . . . as has so often historically been among the risks and occasional realities of the global economy.

 

Is it then necessarily xenophobia to make any distinction in quality between domestic and imported??

 

Just checking. Enquiring minds (well, you know. . .)

[mike wilson]

Hm. Could it be that they* might not actually be xenophobic after all?

 

*They: You know, the ones at Hot Rod Magazine , who're others -- those who aren't us . <_>

 

Hey Mike -- Let's say that we actually have a case where imported components actually ARE clearly and consistently inferior relative to domestic components -- whatever "domestic" means to anyone, regardless of country of origin . . . as has so often historically been among the risks and occasional realities of the global economy.

 

Is it then necessarily xenophobia to make any distinction in quality between domestic and imported??

 

Just checking. Enquiring minds (well, you know. . .)

 

Just replying to a bit of glib and facile journalism with a bit of my own facile glibness. Don't take it personally - just a poor sense-of-humo(u)r fit.

 

I found the article on sidevalve machines fascinating. I have an acquaintance who has not _quite_ managed to get 100mph out of his unblown 500cc single. As it states, the configuration has a possibility of comeback with modern fuels.

[Guest ratchethack]

Don't take it personally - just a poor sense-of-humo(u)r fit.

Oh, I had no inclination to take it personally wotsoever. It's just that I've noticed there seem to be many these days who're mighty quick to find xenophobia in 'others'.

 

I b'lieve the pop-psych term for this is xeno-xenophobia?

 

Double-xeno phobia?

 

Xenophobia-phobia?

 

Or is it xenophobia by proxy??

 

It's designer terminology itself that provides much of the perspective, values, and standards by which we view behavior these days, you know.

 

I find it quite fascinating, but I'm afraid I don't have all the lingo down yet.

 

Coupla thoughts:

 

Ever consider that before the great discovery of "issues" (such as xenophobia, as just one example), that people simply had problems??

 

With all the "advancements" in the fashionable (and increasingly lucrative) pop-psych extortion industry in recent years, I find that "problems" are rapidly becoming a thing of the past! The term simply isn't used much anymore.

 

The way I see it, problems have solutions. But this just won't do today. No, no, not at all. Can't have that!

 

Seems to me that "issues" were among the most brilliant discoveries of the last century! "Issues" are fertile ground for a rich harvest, for the simple reason that, of course, "issues" have no solutions wotsoever!

 

Wot "Issues" have going for them are detailed pop-psych explanations, myriad excuses, endless justifications, legions of professional quack enablers, and entire emerging fields of "counseling" (under the "I'm OK, you're OK, yes, your Healthcare Insurance will pay" plan), backed-up by a blizzard of all-new pseudo-science degrees over their desks, an endless cornucopia of new mind-numbing designer drugs, and a vast (and rapidly widening) array of giant taxpayer-funded pseudo-scientific social "support networks". Brilliant, I tell you.

 

Why, when you've got "issues", you're set up for life. . .

 

"Free" Government-provided Health Care (including Psycho Health, of course) is certainly The Final Frontier. . .

 

Here in the US, we've got an aspiring Candidate for the office of Leader of the No-longer-so-very-Free World who's made it the centerpiece of her campaign (for the second time!). . . Over here, we have vast segments of the population well-conditioned and well-prepared to vote early -- and often. . . No need to read anymore (can't think thru the pharma-fog anyway). Take your medication, that's a good boy. Now follow the large colored arrows to the polls. . .

[polebridge]

'No-longer-so-very-Free World'

 

I think that you have just raised a very serious issue here!