Q: Who “Needs” a Steering Damper?

[dlaing]

Uh...I was one of the first (the first I believe) to point out that changing the fork tube angle is not the same as changing the rake. And I do not think it is a good idea to do it in either direction. As far as Gregs claims I simply have no reason to doubt him but I have repeatedly pointed out that if Guzzi did do that it would not be the first or last dumb thing Guzzi has done (hydro valves?). And lowering the front can increase stability as long as you don't go too far and lose too much trail, but I believe you are wrong in that it has a smaller effect on weight distribution then it does on trail. As I said before, trail is a funny thing. You can take it away little by little with out much effect on stability until you get to the point where you now do not have enough trail and then it makes a big difference quite quickly. I have done it (dropped the front), along with jacking up the rear end as well. It can be a good thing in the right situation but it does have its down sides, especially if you go to far. But I don't need to do that to my V11 as it works perfectly fine the way it is. By the way, you do realize that you can accomplish much the same results by adjusting your sags front and rear to give a better balance to the bike with out physically dropping the front end?It is more a mental thing for some to be able to see the change they made so they can feel the improvements, but the bike does not care how you accomplished the ride height change, only that you did. And honestly, my V11 does not need a steering damper and it does not have one. I seem to have it set up quite well based on my own knowledge of geometry. If you choose another way to go that is fine and I wish you success, but for me my way works fine.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Then why did you say in "tongue in cheek" sarcasm that you had one of the good ones?

[Greg Field]

So far Greg only's made up dead riders killed by made up normal use wobbles. So far no stories of Red Frames that become or became unrideable and deadly as soon as you touch the brakes. It seems you two are a good team, though, so who knows what story comes next.

 

Hubert

 

I never said anyone was killed on a V11. I said that several times in the past Guzzis have been designed on which some of them proved dangerously unstable. On those machines, Guzzi and most of the cheerleaders for the company claimed there was no problem. Guzzi even sent an engineer over to check the bikes for "proper set-up." Still, they wobbled, and Guzzi stone-walled until after more crashes and the further shedding of blood. It took the crashing of that Guzzi engineer and then the death of a factory test rider in one instance before they listened. That you don't believe it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Some of you are more comfortable with demons and haikus than facts. So be it.

[dlaing]

I never said anyone was killed on a V11. I said that several times in the past Guzzis have been designed on which some of them proved dangerously unstable. On those machines, Guzzi and most of the cheerleaders for the company claimed there was no problem. Guzzi even sent an engineer over to check the bikes for "proper set-up." Still, they wobbled, and Guzzi stone-walled until after more crashes and the further shedding of blood. It took the crashing of that Guzzi engineer and then the death of a factory test rider in one instance before they listened. That you don't believe it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Some of you are more comfortable with demons and haikus than facts. So be it.

 

Haikus cause speed wobbles?

 

You ride a red frame

Without increasing yolk rake

You will crash and die

 

LOL!

[docc]

I never said anyone was killed on a V11. I said that several times in the past Guzzis have been designed on which some of them proved dangerously unstable. On those machines, Guzzi and most of the cheerleaders for the company claimed there was no problem. Guzzi even sent an engineer over to check the bikes for "proper set-up." Still, they wobbled, and Guzzi stone-walled until after more crashes and the further shedding of blood. It took the crashing of that Guzzi engineer and then the death of a factory test rider in one instance before they listened. That you don't believe it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Some of you are more comfortable with demons and haikus than facts. So be it.

I'd have to go back and do some reading, but, were those Ambassadors or Eldorados?

 

And, finally, are there any absolute reports of 1999-2001 V11 spine frames causing that same level of instability?

[GuzziMoto]

Then why did you say in "tongue in cheek" sarcasm that you had one of the good ones?

Because my wifes V11 is one of the ones that does not have the triple clamps offset, which I consider to be a bad idea. So the fact that my wifes V11 is pre-offset clamp means that to me it is one of the good ones.

Sorry if I was not clear.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .are there any absolute reports of 1999-2001 V11 spine frames causing that same level of instability?

Coupla thoughts, Docc. . .

 

Seems to me this is one of the largest and most well trafficked V11 Forums on the planet -- if not #1. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The UNSUBSTANTIATED allegations repeated again here in the last 2 threads on the topic at hand have produced NOT ONE (1 ea.) credibly documented, evidence-backed case where a "short frame" V11 has ever demonstrated ANY symptoms of instability to any degree beyond that which would be rightfully expected from any other production moto of similar geometry that was not credibly documented to have been properly set up according to well established industry practice guidelines for any moto. Again -- Not a large number, not a small number, not some, not a few -- NONE.

 

Single vehicle moto crashes due to ignorance of proper suspension setup compounded by often deceitfully concealed (and almost NEVER honestly admitted) "operator error" are as common as dirt. "Not my fault. It just flew out from under me." Such have been posts on this Forum, nearly word for word. Many more such "incidents" are simply never mentioned -- anywhere. The woods 'r full of 'em. Happens every weekend all summer long where I ride, and much of the rest of the year, too. All OEMs and all categories of riders, many self-professed "experts" among 'em. I've rolled up on the aftermath of the carnage many times. Like the lame excuses, the Old Wive's Tales will never die. . . And waddayagonna do?

 

Correct me if I’m wrong here (Part II), but considering the worldwide reach of this Forum, wouldn't it be fairly safe to conclude that over the last 10 years since production of the aforementioned short frame Guzzis, that if there ever had been anything a-tall behind the Old Wive's Tale still being perpetuated by a tiny select few hereabouts (I do b'lieve it may actually be limited to a single individual now -- someone who has quite evidently never owned one at that) -- that there'd be SOMETHING credible and well documented from among the largest known community of owners and riders of these bikes who’ve actually ridden them for however many millions of combined total miles for the last decade that would provide some basis for any “truth” behind the fairy tales of the paranormal – something beyond the likes o’ THIS naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation, that is:

A certain number of those things're extremely twitchy, no matter how they're set up. Many of these are no longer on the road 'cause they were totaled in crashes. Other specific bikes aren't twitchy, no matter how they're set up. If you have a twitchy one, be wise and maintain and use your steering damper. And be careful.

Of course, for anyone who actually knows the first thing about suspension set-up, THIS^ is pure hogswallop.

 

And then there was THIS naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation (Part II), the following day:

. . .I bet if I investigated with the engineers about why the change was made, I'd find that there are crashes behind it. I'll get to that when I have time to update "Big Twins," hopefully soon.

No credibly backed facts here^, either. Pure, unmitigated speculation. Getting the cart before the horse on something like this is generally considered reckless and irresponsible. Corporate lawyers by the boatload yearn for such baseless allegations in print. By all means, let's see what actually makes it into hard copy.

 

And last, but surely not least, we had THE FOLLOWING naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation taking Part III honors, wherein we are informed that only the OMNISCIENT author-god hisself can (dryly!) appreciate the irony and the terror of the undocumented, the unsubstantiated, the paranormal, and the abjectly absurd. The rest of us, who have actually used steering dampers (as engineered, factory installed, and clearly intended) for a decade on our short frame Guzzis are clearly blind. Fools for doing it, too.

 

Now as gob-smackingly astounding as this next one is, we're ALSO informed that proper chassis setup actually makes the short frame Guzzis "less stable" -- not to mention the astonishing apparent 180-degree reversal from the advice dispensed in naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation (Part I) above, where we were next suddenly informed 3 weeks later that anyone taking the former advice to use the OE provided steering damper as engineered and intended, is NOW terrified of their Guzzi -- The latter nugget of wisdom dispensed as the sole "proof" of the existence of the alleged "extremely twitchy defect"!!!

 

In other words, the ONLY "proof" of the existence of the "extremely twitchy defect" is following our author-god's advice, which thereby establishes said "proof" with, err. . .terror?!?!

 

Now as UNHINGED as all this^ may seem, you simply can't make it up. . . Here it is in original post, word for word:

 

Again I note dryly how terrified all the riders (save Guzzimoto) of "stable" red frames are of riding without a steering damper. Those who have eyes to see will see the irony in this. The rest will look foolish to those with eyes to see. Or, they'll realize that the reason they're terrified to ride without a damper is because those bikes aren't all that stable. And the "proper" set up espoused by some here makes the bikes even less stable. Heretical, yes, but look at your own fear of your own bikes to see the proof.

TODAY, WITH THE BENEFIT OF 20-20 HINDSIGHT OVER THE HISTORY OF AN ENTIRE DECADE:

 

1. What, exactly is this alleged "extremely twitchy defect" that some short frames have and some don't -- "no matter how they're set up"?

 

2. Where are the "BAD" examples that have this alleged "extremely twitchy defect"?

 

3. Where is the credibly documented history of the alleged carnage attributable to this alleged "extremely twitchy defect"?

 

4. Where's the recall? What?! No recall?! Then where are the Technical Service Bulletins?

 

5. Where's the credibly documented history of lawsuits that would rightfully be expected in the wake of the "obvious" alleged liability?

 

Does it seem at all odd to anyone else other than Docc and others such as myself who actually own and ride short frame Guzzis that my repeat challenges to this reeking load o' offal^ have gone 100% unanswered, save by a call for SUBSTANTIATION (on MY part!) for MY positions? Anybody notice who has backed their positions with the most credible professional expertise on this thread (starting in post #1), fully provided with direct source links, and who it is who has brought NONE wotsoever to back up the empty, naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation flushed out above?

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know) . . . ??

[luhbo]

Maybe that you haven't compared part numbers yet. Compare part numbers - if you find some that match it may explain and proof a lot

 

Hubert

[Greg Field]

Yes, probably the biggest V11 forum. Until what, a week ago, none of you knew that it was the triple clamps that were changed, let alone how and why. Good lord, with all you geniuses on this forum, you remained ignorant of this until I told you? How could that be? All the yammering for all these years and you had no idea what you were yammering about. What else might you be ignorant about?

 

Christ, remember the glowing oil light thing? You clowns kvetched about it for years but none of you took the time to hook up an oil-pressure gauge and find out what was really happening. All you did was whine and wring your hands. Within days of first seeing my oil light flash while the bike was accelerating, I had a pressure gauge on it and proved what was happening and was on to solutions for it. Of course, there was no problem there, either; just more demons and haikus, too . . .

 

Or remember the RLSH and the pink moly? Nothing but mocking there, either, until I proved it to you.

 

COnsider the possibility that you will be proven as foolish about this as you were about that . . .

[Guest ratchethack]

Maybe that you haven't compared part numbers yet. Compare part numbers - if you find some that match it may explain and proof a lot

 

Hubert

Why, that's a CAPITAL idea, Hubert!

 

Leave us all become trailblazers on an Extremely Twitchy Demon hunt! A PARANORMAL group hunting expedition! What fun!

 

Since no ID of the "extremely twitchy defect" has been forthcoming for an entire decade (let alone a recall -- or as much as a single TSB), IT'S WAAAAAAY PAST TIME for US to take the bull by the horns ourselves -- NOW! Better late than never! -- and discover on our own what range of part numbers contain the BAD "extremely twitchy defect" and post them prominently with the GOOD "non-twitchy" replacement part numbers in the FAQ's on this here Forum!

 

We can round up all the "extremely twitchy" parts, burn them at the stake, and exorcise the Extremely Twitchy Demon ourselves, forever!

 

Wotta concept!!! By all means, let's get started!!!!

 

First, to get this little clambake launched, what parts shall we identify and list by number that contain the "extremely twitchy defect"?

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well you know). . .

 

 

We have met the enemy, and he is US?!

 

Come to think of it, Pogo's right^. Scratch the whole plan. D'you reckon if we actually listed GOOD "non-twitchy" and BAD "extremely twitchy" part numbers and completed our own recall 100% worldwide, it would finally put an end to The Old Wive's Tale?

 

No. . . no, I reckon not. . .

[Greg Field]

Well, I personally know of four red-frames that went into wobbles and crashed. It's true that none of them were set up by the god-like Hatchetwhacker, so no doubt those ones don't count. Another early one I know about is still owned by a local dentist. He describes it as twitchy but didn't want to do the triple-clamp update kit 'cause he feared it would slow the handling. He just keeps his damper cranked up and rides it sanely. Demons, yes . . .

 

Did you know that a vast minority of V11 owners brave this list?

[Guest ratchethack]

COnsider the possibility that you will be proven as foolish about this as you were about that . . .

Hmm. A flier from deep left in attempt to derail and obfuscate? Not a very good choice, I'm afraid. You proved nothing to me about Redline, Greg. I had been in direct contact with Redline for many years before that and ever since. Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) ever take your word over theirs as "proof" of anything to do with their products?

 

Back to the topic at hand, I have yet to see anything remotely resembling "proof" to back up your naked, baseless, and unsupportable speculation yet, and we've been beating this one unmercifully for months now.

 

What're the probabilities by now (after 10 years of ZIP, nothing, nada) that you'll suddenly cough up some prize peacock on an empty table, Greg?

 

Though you obviously ignored every one of the following questions as if they weren't there, the same way you've ignored all my challenges to you previously:

TODAY, WITH THE BENEFIT OF 20-20 HINDSIGHT OVER THE HISTORY OF AN ENTIRE DECADE:

 

1. What, exactly is this alleged "extremely twitchy defect" that some short frames have and some don't -- "no matter how they're set up"?

 

2. Where are the "BAD" examples that have this alleged "extremely twitchy defect"?

 

3. Where is the credibly documented history of the alleged carnage attributable to this alleged "extremely twitchy defect"?

 

4. Where's the recall? What?! No recall?! Then where are the Technical Service Bulletins?

 

5. Where's the credibly documented history of all the lawsuits that would rightfully be expected in the wake of the "obvious" alleged liability?

Consider the possibility that your choice to do so here again today has escaped very few who, unlike yourself, have actually owned and ridden a short frame Guzzi for many years and many tens of thousands of 100% "extremely twitchy" free miles. . . myself included.

[Greg Field]

Here's the original thread referenced on RLSH, for those who are interested. Note the sly set-up. Note the usual suspects in apposition. Note how they got bowled over. Consider that this might be in play again.

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...t=0&start=0

[Greg Field]

And while I'm at it, @#!#$# humility. You all revere Roper, and rightly so, but I fitted a Roper plate to Captain Nemo's V11 long before I even owned a V11 or hung out here much. He was having the oil-light problem, and he came to me to fix it. I just looked at the parts and deduced what would fix it. We got a Roper plate for the Tonti bikes, and I cut enough holes in it to fit it to the V11. It fixed the problem, too, years before I had to prove it to you dull thinkers. Demons, yes. Some know how to slay them . . . some just crank up their steering dampers and hope for the best.

[docc]

I always consider it ungood when the last five posts are back and forth between the same 'contenders.'

 

My apologies for (again) offering "moderation" unasked for.

 

I support the (RH) thinking that these machines could be properly set-up to ride reliably and safely. I do not ascribe to the idea that some units are somehow 'flawed' or otherwise defective to the point of being unridable. There are a finite number of parameters that could be systematically tuned. I acknowledge that there are many riders that just can't get it done and don't have access to tuners that could do it for them. (I believe) this is not an easy bike to ride hard.

 

I trust the judgment (GF) of a guy sitting in the cat bird's seat of Guzzidom. Greg sees and hears and helps keep serviced many more Guzzis than I'll see in a lifetime. Sad that where I live, there are a pitiful few of these bikes compared to the Pacific Northwest. So, if Greg says he's seen or known of four bikes to have crashed out, I accept this.

 

I believe we've 'discovered' quite a number of the contributors to difficulties in handling the early V11. If there weren't any 'contributors', none of us would have had to work our way through any "set-up" to begin with.

 

The real conflict, and perhaps the entire impetus for this thread, revolves around the assertion that (I paraphrase), some of these bikes are just 'bad' and the position that effective and thoughtful tuning will resolve contributing issues.

 

While I remain in the "tuning" camp, I would not dispute that some riders crashed their Guzzis out, but because they never, or couldn't, achieve a proper set-up.

 

At this point, I wonder if we've reached a Darwinian point in the evolution of the V11. All the riders whose badly set-up V11 with the soft tires, soft springs and too much sag have pranged themselves into the tarmac and sent the riders back to R1s and VFRs where they belong.

 

For us, the fittest of us, that remain, seeing to the complex set-up of your early Sport is a very satisfying experience. Yet, one which you cannot safely neglect. You simply do not want to become Number Five.

[docc]

Whups! Six posts there now while I was trying to choose words.

 

One of the strangest things is I see Greg saying that "Some know how to slay them" which I take to mean that the difficulties and challenges of these bikes can be addressed/tuned/managed.

 

Then I watch Ratch' try to force the issue and get Greg to admit that the suspension challenges can be tuned; that there are no mysterious flaws; no completely unexplainable bad v11 Sports.

 

I'm not sure we're watching a disagreement as much as two guys that refuse to agree.

 

 

So, are there unexplainably bad V11 Sports?

 

Or should we otherwise get down to detailing the process of setting them up properly?