Guest Brian Robson Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Dlaing....You have got to be kidding.....this is an attempt to wind some people up? If not, your asinine arguments about "allowing" the dealer to make $10 on a tyre, and saving the oil change place money by NOT using their oil are so spurious as to defy logic. You continue your merry voyage into LaLa land using expensive specialist tools that your mechanic has freely allowed you to borrow. I don't work at a dealer and have never owned a motorcycle store, and I can't imagine one that looks forward to you walking through the door. All you cheap bastards want everything...a store that is open 24 hours, has the exact part in stock, makes minimal profit on those items to your liking, lets you bring in your oil, then sends its tools out so cack handed home mechanics can f%#@k them up and of course would never make you pay retail price...after all, only "rich kids" should pay full price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd haven Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 I have never liked that attitude from dealers.If your are making money on labor that is fine, but if I have the part, for whatever reason, you should install it. A common misconsception, David. Parts mark-up is a part of overall profit structure. Far too many of the "mom and pop" motorcycle dealers might go along with this line of thinking. And fail as a result. It doesn't pay the bills. Just the facts. Not enough profit generated per man-hour. Fees, permits, garagekeepers and workers comp ins.,haz-mat disposal, uniforms, shop equipment. All costs in a shop not borne by internet warehouses. If you want to work on your bike in your garage or driveway-- have a party. More power to you. But DIY means just that. Working on one's bike can be rewarding and fun. And quite cost-effective. We sell parts to a large number of DIYers. And help out when they get in over their heads. Loan a tool to use in the parking lot? No problem at all. But the places that sell cheap tires also sell tire irons. Or go together with a few buddies and buy a tire changer. (ours cost $4000.00, $2500.00 for the balancer) Again, have a party. Our labor rate doubles if you provide the part. Now how much did you save? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtybill Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Well, the shops are catching on during their busy times. I phoned one shop to get a tire changed last year and they asked me if I purchased the tire there. I didn't and told them that. They said they were too busy to change it. Fair enough, I thought. The thing about lending tools out is a big no no. I've yet to see a Mechanic lend his tools to anyone, and I can't blame him. Now if the shop has some basic hand tools that they want to lend, fine. I can remember in the early 80's it was not uncommon for some of the mechanics I worked with to have over $25,000 in tools. Would you lend them out? I wouldn't and didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtybill Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 All you cheap bastards want everything...a store that is open 24 hours, has the exact part in stock, makes minimal profit on those items to your liking, lets you bring in your oil, then sends its tools out so cack handed home mechanics can f%#@k them up and of course would never make you pay retail price...after all, only "rich kids" should pay full price. 43600[/snapback] I'd like some free Guinness too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX REDNECK (R.I.P.) Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 I have never liked that attitude from dealers.If your are making money on labor that is fine, but if I have the part, for whatever reason, you should install it. David,wouldn't that be like you walking into this McDonalds where I work & saying you have your own hamburger meat ? BTW , for you I'd do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy york Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Having been in the "Business" before I'll have to say that if you are a regular customer, you will get better attention.If I was having a busy day and one of our regulars came in with a flat or needed a tire, I would get right on it. The bike on the lift can usually wait 30 more will I fix this problem,and the guy or gal will get a good deal on the tire and the labor. I remember one customer who might as well have had a baseball bat in his hand. Thats what I felt like after dealing with him cause he just verbally beat the shit outta ya about pricing. He wanted a Termi ti complete system which comes with a new ECU,plate relocater....etc. He did not buy from me.Shows up about a week later with his stuff and wants to know how much to put it on. Somebody at the store qouted him an hour labor .We did the work and I told him he wasn't welcome in the store anymore. Which led to the standard labor rate of 65.00 an hour...or if you brought your own shit in cause you got it cheaper from the internet...but your to s..... to put on yourself...then you get charged 85.00 an hour. If i'm lyin I'm dyin and you would be suprised how many places do this.ANd the shops that won't do are twice as sick of it because they tell ya they won't do it. How many units do you think Guzzi sold last year?? In the big picture of motorcycles Guzzi is barely on the scope. Don't get me wrong...I like my LeMans...quirks and all....but there are a lot of people out there that think there getting a honda accord or something.Lets see...35 to 40year old engine design,10 to 12 year old frame design, and some semi modern suspesion,wheels,and brakes,put together buy some people that can't do the same thing twice right. My dog takes a shit more consistantly. We are cheap. Were all here on this board to live,breath,drink MG..and the by product of all this knowledge is that we learn something and therefore don't have to take our bike to the dealer I'm sidetracked now ..... andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Yeah, that's ok and all, but Andy- how do you really feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 David,wouldn't that be like you walking into this McDonalds where I work & saying you have your own hamburger meat ? BTW , for you I'd do it 43626[/snapback] No, it wouldn't. It would be if McDonalds itemized the Bill: Parts: Two all beef patties 6oz @ $0.20 per ounce, $1.20 Special sauce 1tsp @ $0.25, $0.25 Lettuce 1 soggy leaf @ $0.25, $0.25 Cheese 1 slice @ $0.50, $0.50 Pickles 3 slimes @ $0.10, $0.30 Onions 1 slice @ $0.25, $0.25 on a sesame seed bun @ $0.50 Total parts $3.25 Labor: 0.1 hour @ $30/hour, $3.00 Grand Total $6.25!!!! McD's charges much less and that is why McDonalds understands customer service better than most shops. I am not bitching about not paying a fair price, I am bitching about paying for something I am not getting. If I bring in the part myself, it is no loss to the shop. It is not my fault they don't charge enough hourly. I will pay more for a stocked part because I know it costs money to stock it. I do not like to pay the excessive premium to have them order the part, especially when they should have stocked it to begin with. Sure they should be paid for the time it takes to order the part, but not $50. How much does a dealer make on a pair of Napoleon mirrors? maybe $5 or $10 when they have been collecting dust for 5 years. Why don't they charge more for that? Why do they have to make more than $40 on a helmet when they know the internet is much cheaper? It is going to get stuck on the shelf and the styrofoam is going to degrade. Price to move and yah, tell your wholesaler that you are upset and want fixed advertised prices. I may be cheap, but I spent $1500 on custom leathers because it was worth it. I bought my bike out of town because my dealer did not have one, and because the other local dealer wanted $2000 more. Am I too cheap to pay $2000 more? Damn Staight! I am not going to get $2000 worth of better service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Dlaing....You have got to be kidding.....this is an attempt to wind some people up?If not, your asinine arguments about "allowing" the dealer to make $10 on a tyre, and saving the oil change place money by NOT using their oil are so spurious as to defy logic. You continue your merry voyage into LaLa land using expensive specialist tools that your mechanic has freely allowed you to borrow. I don't work at a dealer and have never owned a motorcycle store, and I can't imagine one that looks forward to you walking through the door. All you cheap bastards want everything...a store that is open 24 hours, has the exact part in stock, makes minimal profit on those items to your liking, lets you bring in your oil, then sends its tools out so cack handed home mechanics can f%#@k them up and of course would never make you pay retail price...after all, only "rich kids" should pay full price. 43600[/snapback] I am not kidding, Brian. Your logic is faulty. FWIW I did not say that I expect to borrow expensive tools, I am pleasantly suprised when offered just a ratchet wrench or a screw driver. That is one of the reasons I love my dealer. The dealer should charge what is fair. No More and No Less. How much did you pay for your bike? How much do you pay for oil changes? How much do you pay for tires? (Parts and Labor) What do you consider an acceptible mark up on parts? How much more are you willing to pay your boutique rather than the internet part dealer? So, would you never order from MPH, Rossopuro, MGCycle, Harpers, EPFGuzzi or Moto International, since they undercut small dealers? Get Real! You are living in an assinine fantasy, and I doubt you practice what you preach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian Robson Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 The dealer should charge what is fair. No More and No Less. 43648[/snapback] Obviously what is fair to you and therefore less to him/her. Defining "fair" is a discussion all unto itself. You continually bleat that you are doing the dealer such a favour by bringing in a part and saving him the expense of having it on the shelf, ergo for you, a dealer is simply a building with bikes in it, no more and no less The two Guzzi stores that I use and get all my Guzzi stuff from are not boutiques, (neither of them would have the audacity to charge 1500 US for a frou-frou leather suit), but decent stores, run by decent people simply trying to make a living, and I wouldn't insult them by bringing in parts from mail order to put on my bike. When they quote me a price for a part, if I need it and can afford it, I'll buy it. I presume under faith, that they will make a profit; I want them to make a profit because I want them to stay in business. You can't assume double standards apply to everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 I am glad dyno tuners don't think along those lines. Imagine them saying, "Oh you did not buy that PCIII from me so I won't dynotune it, or I am gonna charge you $400 instead of $300" Give me a break. If they want to make a package deal for buying the PCIII for $350 and get the dyno tune for $100 off, all the more power to them. It is a matter of image. But be straight forward about it and don't be a whining greedy dishonest store keeper because the customer bought it elsewhere. It is more than just a matter of the glass of wine being half full or half empty. I would be happier to pay$260 for the PCIII and $390 for the dyno tune, rather than $350 for the PCIII and $300 for the custom tune, because I want them to make their profit for their effort, not for how clever their marketing is. Heck, I might even pay them $400 and lose ten bucks, I just don't like the 'you did not buy it from us attitude'. When Guzzi dealers won't honor warranties from bikes they did not sell something is wrong with the system. The dealer should not expect great profits on the bike sales, but likewise the dealer should get paid REAL MONEY for honoring the warranty. I know my dealer got paid less than his shop's hourly rate (probably paid in part credit) to complete the tranny recall. Maybe with practice he could have got the routine down to speed of a factory assembly line and make a profit, but the factory or MGNA is CHEAP, and it hurts their reputation. So, I did my best to schedule other work with it so that they could make some profit money as they got ripped by MGNA. It is only fair. And when the tranny started leaking oil, I took it back and had him tighten the exterior bolts, but it was not enough. Most people say I should make them redo the seal, but I don't have the heart to do that to them, because I know MGNA won't pay them a dime. And I don't hold the leak against them. The problem is that the instructions tell them to assemble metal to metal, no gasket, no cement. So, I am stuck with a leaky tranny till I get off my lazy ass and fix it. If it was my Toyota that had the problem, I'd make them fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 This is going to be an explosive thread - no doubt. So here's a few of my experiences on a very few of the items mentioned. I used to go to my local Suzuki dealer for tire changes. They didn't carry my brand of tire, but could order it. For that, $10 + tire and it was mounted and balanced - provided I brought in the wheel and they didn't have to fiddle with the Guzzi. Fair enough. If I brought in my own tire - $20 to mount and balance. That, to me, is the sign of a dealer that has things in perspective. They're encouraging you to use their facility to order tires, but they are not heavily penalizing you if you don't and they certainly are not turning away your business in either case. To disassemble the fork tubes on my 1971 Ambassador, I need an oddball tool. One dealer will rent the tool, another will loan it free and the dealer that's semi-local to me, insists that the tubes be brought in and a full shop hour charged for loosening the two nuts and another hour charged for tightening them when they go back together after painting. Guess who is not going to get my business? Sometimes you can borrow a special tool, especially if it's a unique and low usage tool, because the everyday shop activities don't require that it be there every minute of the day - and sometimes you can't. Period. I wouldn't presume to take a dealer to task about lending tools though, their livelihood depends upon being able to do maintenance as well as sell parts, bikes etc. It's probably not so much that they would lose a few minutes labor here and there, once and again, but that if they adopted a policy of lending tools, they'd suffer from not having the tools available when they should be - plus the added liability of damaged/lost/stolen tools that they would have to replace before they continue to do their own business. Understandably, if they were real snotty about it when being asked about borrowing a tool, I would probably eschew their shop in favor of one with a better attitude, but I can understand their position and have no personal problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd haven Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 .... don't be a whining greedy dishonest store keeper because the customer bought it elsewhere.snip When Guzzi dealers won't honor warranties from bikes they did not sell something is wrong with the system. The dealer should not expect great profits on the bike sales, but likewise the dealer should get paid REAL MONEY for honoring the warranty. I know my dealer got paid less than his shop's hourly rate (probably paid in part credit) to complete the tranny recall. Maybe with practice he could have got the routine down to speed of a factory assembly line and make a profit, but the factory or MGNA is CHEAP, and it hurts their reputation. So, I did my best to schedule other work with it so that they could make some profit money as they got ripped by MGNA. It is only fair. And when the tranny started leaking oil, I took it back and had him tighten the exterior bolts, but it was not enough. Most people say I should make them redo the seal, but I don't have the heart to do that to them, because I know MGNA won't pay them a dime. And I don't hold the leak against them. The problem is that the instructions tell them to assemble metal to metal, no gasket, no cement. So, I am stuck with a leaky tranny till I get off my lazy ass and fix it. If it was my Toyota that had the problem, I'd make them fix it. 43661[/snapback] Mr Laing, As a whining dishonest greedy "storekeeper", I'd like to pipe in here. I mentioned above the need for a shop to make profit(dirty word) in order to survive. All the good intentions, well wishes, and the "brotherhood of steel" crap, as enjoyable as it is, does not pay rent, or any of the other expenses outlined in my earlier response. 10% net profit would be ideal. We would do backflips if we made 1/2 that. Re your earlier post, please explain how MPH(or the others you mention) has undercut smaller(however this is defined) dealers. We have such a small staff(4, including part time office mgr/receptionist) that illness, vacations, and time off put a huge burden on the the remaining employees. Please enlighten as to how the "small" dealers get by.(we work Mondays,too.) As per warranty-- if I had a dollar for every bike we have done warranty work on not bought from us, I'd have a huge fistful. How about warranty for a 3-state area, with others from as far away as Miss. and Va. (bikes transported for warranty work.)? Do we rate a bonus from MGNA for that? I think not. If your dealer got paid less than his shop rate for warranty work, he needs to tighten up his internal paper work. MGNA has well-outlined procedures for establishing warranty pay rates at regular shop rate, and notify dealers of same quite prominently when "adjustment" time comes around(going on at present.) Yes, warranty is paid in parts credit-- this works quite well for us. Pays for the tank bags, saddlebags, windshields, tail racks, carbon fiber bits and apparel, etc. hanging on the wall. When they sell-- pure profit(bad word again). Our lead tech has the trans recall time down to warranty rate after a few. We've done 12. This is the way warranty works. It is an industry-wide complaint--Ford had a huge revolt 2 years ago over warranty labor times-- and guys learn to work around it. Guzzi is no different from any vehicle manufacturer in this respect. I am sorry your trans leaks, but if it's the side plate leaking, there is no seal. Flange sealant is required, and not really a big job(20 mins?). I am not aware of any seal on the 6-speed which requires sealant or cement. The dealer should cover this, IMHO. We would. There is such a thing as not paying enough. "Price is what you pay, Value is what you get"- Warren Buffet Oh yeah-- We're not storekeepers. We don't sell 2-liter bottles of Coke. Or 48 ounce bottles of Tide laundry detergent. We sell repairs of machines, and there is more to it than shows up on the bottom line of the invoice. YMMVl Life is not Wal-Mart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 How do you undercut? You sell on the internet, out of local territory. Your customers are quoted as saying, "Great Prices" You have a reputation of not turning down bikes bought elsewhere. That undercuts the ones that turn down warranty work. You teach the customer how to fix the bike himself so dealers lose out on potential labor profit! Stucchi crossover at MGCycle $349.95 at your place, $339.00! How much would my dealer charge me? I don't know. But my experience is that most things I have bought from them cost more than what they would have through you or just about anyone who advertises prices on the internet. If my dealer stocked a Stucchi Crossover it would probably sit there for ten years. So who is going to make a better profit, you or him? Or don't tell me you pay the same as my dealer would for the one crossover that he orders for me. You either save money by ordering more than one at a time, or Luigi Stucchi gives you a better deal because of how many you have ordered in the past. It is not just you. As I had listed several who advertise on the web. Checkout these fresh prices from Harper's Oil Filters 1415 3000 OEM Oil Filter All 850-1000cc Retail $15.00 Our Price $ 6.50 3015 3000 OEM Oil Filter All 1100cc & Daytona RS Retail $18.75 Our Price $ 7.50 1915 3000 OEM Oil filter All V50's & V65's Retail $22.17 Our Price $ 8.50 Fuel Filter 2910 6061 OEM Fuel Filter Retail $41.24 Our Price $19.50 Air Filter 1211 3600 OEM Air Filter V700, Ambassador, Eldorado Retail $28.69 Our Price $16.25 1711 3651 OEM Air Filter 850 & 1000 1975-81 Retail $29.77 Our Price $16.25 2811 3660 OEM Air Filter 1000-1100 1987 & Newer Retail $21.01 Our Price $10.95 I just bought a manual fuel petcock from my dealer for thirty something dollars, it was in stock, so I am not complaining, just pointing out that you internet dudes are undercutting the competition. The same petcock is $16.25 at http://www.mgcycle.com/fuel.html]MG Cycle[/url]. I knew that going in, and I lost about $20. But I'll install it myself. Maybe they should be pissed off that I buy parts from them and don't pay them to install the parts. That makes about as much sense as being upset about installing parts that you don't sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian Robson Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 The slightly scary thing is that you feel you make sense. You might have had a point once, with a heavy emphasis on the word once, but now you set Mr Haven as your target? Dealers happier to fit parts they don't sell? I think they'd just be happy that you weren't a customer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts